Ezine 89 Excellere

Ezine Excellere # 89
English Version
Casa Juillet.
08:23 p.m. 28/09/2010 09:40 a.m. 09/12/2010


The List of Content :

1.- Dinosaurs.................................................... By Bob Davenport
2.- The Nazis and the Flying discs....................By The Director Mr. Shafer.
3.- The change of History facts.........................By Liebe Gundlich
4.- Deep Impact’ proven Sitchin’s Theory?.......By Director Shafer.
5.- Creationism being taught in schools............By Natalicio Infante.

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1.- Dinosaurs............... By Bob Davenport

Torosaurus actually just old Triceratops
Triceratops and its cousin Torosaurus are not hard to tell apart. Both horned dinosaurs had a giant bony frill that rose up behind the head, but Torosaurus’ frill was much longer and was adorned with giant holes that were covered by a thin layer of protein called keratin. Yet Triceratops and Torosaurus may have been more alike than scientists realized: New research suggests that the two animals were actually the same species, with Torosaurus being the adult version of Triceratops.
Triceratops had a shorter frill than Torosaurus .
Triceratops did not have holes in its frill.
Torosaurus had giant holes in its frill. When the animal was alive, the holes were covered in a thin layer of keratin.
Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 GenericIt’s not unprecedented for scientists to determine that what were previously classified as distinct dinosaurs were actually just different life stages of the same species. In the 1970s, Peter Dodson, a paleontologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, demonstrated this with duck-billed dinosaurs. Last year, paleontologists Jack Horner of Montana State University in Bozeman and Mark Goodwin of the University of California at Berkeley reported in PLoS ONE that two genera of dome-headed dinosaurs — Dracorex and Stygimoloch — were really just young members of Pachycephalosaurus.
Such misclassifications have happened because scientists haven’t always considered growth patterns and development when assessing dinosaurs, so it’s likely there are many more cases of mistaken identity out there, says John Scannella, a doctoral student at Montana State University and co-author of the new study, published in the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology.
About 20 years ago, paleontologists John Ostrom of Yale University in New Haven, Conn., and Peter Wellnhofer of the Bavarian State Collection for Paleontology and Geology in Munich, Germany, first suggested Triceratops and Torosaurus might be members of the same species, Scannella says, with Torosaurus, the larger animal, actually being a male Triceratops and the smaller Triceratops being females. But no one had studied that possibility until now. Although Scannella and Horner, his advisor, agreed that these dinosaurs might be the same species, they thought the differences between Triceratops and Torosaurus were more likely the result of age than sex.
Over the past couple of years, Scannella and Horner traveled to museums across the country to examine more than a hundred Triceratops and Torosaurus specimens. They grouped the Triceratops skulls in their sample into different life stages based on certain features that scientists had previously determined changed as the animal got older. For example, the horns of a young Triceratops pointed backward; as the animal matured, its horns started to face forward. In looking at differences between the age groups, Scannella and Horner found that as a Triceratops aged, its frill elongated (approaching the length of Torosaurus) and the bone thinned out — specifically, the bone got thinner in the precise areas where Torosaurus had its holes. By studying the Torosaurus skulls, they also learned that Torosaurus had all the known signs of a mature Triceratops, such as forward-facing horns.
They further tested their idea by looking at the bones’ microstructure under the microscope. Older individuals have more bone remodeling, in which older bone is replaced with new bone, so older bone looks different than younger bone. The pair cut samples from the horns of several Triceratops and Torosaurus specimens, and noticed the Torosaurus skulls had more bone remodeling than the most mature Triceratops samples, indicating a more advanced age for the Torosaurus specimens. All of this evidence points to Torosaurus being an adult Triceratops, Scannella says.
If this is true, then it means Triceratops didn’t gain some of its adult traits — the longer frill and holes — until very late in development, as none of the largest (and presumably oldest) Triceratops possess the defining traits of Torosaurus. Such late blooming is not unheard of in the animal kingdom, Scannella says. An adult cassowary, for example, has a large bony crest on its head that develops suddenly at the end of the bird’s adolescence, he says.
“It’s a very creative hypothesis and they’ve got interesting data in support of it,” Dodson says. “I just have a hard time swallowing that the transformation would be that great.” He also points out that the fusion of sutures on Triceratops skulls suggest that some of the largest-known Triceratops were indeed fully grown, because such sutures don’t fuse until later in life in animals.
Andrew Farke, curator of paleontology at the Raymond M. Alf Museum of Paleontology in Claremont, Calif., also finds it hard to believe that Triceratops and Torosaurus were the same animal. One problem with the idea, he says, relates to the dinosaurs’ epoccipitals, projections of bone that line the edges of the animals’ frills. All species of horned dinosaurs had epoccipitals and the number stayed the same throughout an animal’s life. Triceratops had many more epoccipitals than Torosaurus, he says, so the new hypothesis would imply that as a Triceratops grew up, it lost some of its epoccipitals — that would be “unprecedented” among horned dinosaurs.
Still, Farke says, several characteristics of Triceratops are unusual compared to other horned dinosaurs, so anything’s possible. He says he’s not “unconvincible,” but needs to see much more data before he would be sold on the idea.
One valuable piece of data would be the discovery of a skull that exhibits transitional features between Triceratops and Torosaurus, says Michael Ryan, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History in Ohio. That would make Horner and Scannella’s case even stronger, he says. “I think [they’re] probably correct … but we need more data.”

If Torosaurus and Triceratops are the same species, then the significance of the change goes beyond the need to update textbooks and museum exhibits, Scannella says. In recent years, in part due to the number of dinosaur species that have been consolidated because of misclassifications, paleontologists have noticed that dinosaur diversity started to decline during the Late Cretaceous, just prior to the asteroid impact 65.5 million years ago that killed off the dinosaurs. This work provides further evidence of that decline, Scannella says, and forces scientists to consider what caused dinosaurs to dwindle at this time.

It also changes the way scientists view dinosaur ecology, Scannella adds. If an area was once home to several species of very closely related animals, then scientists need to think about how the animals could have co-existed, in terms of sharing available food resources, for example. But if similar dinosaur species turn out instead to be babies, teenagers and adults of the same species, then the kinds of ecological questions scientists ask will be different, he says.

Finally, the work reminds us that paleontologists are far from knowing all there is to know about even the most iconic dinosaurs, Scannella says. “Even a dinosaur like Triceratops, which we’ve known about for 120 years, still has surprises in store for us and a lot to teach us about the history

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2.- The Nazis and the Flying discs.......By The Director Mr. Shafer.

The Nazis never had a success with their Flying Disc.
Hitler had been predicted that the secret of the Flying Disc, which had in ancient times always been seen with the sign of the Swastika on it, would be found on his birthday, April 20.

He was also told that it would come from a small Town in Holland, called DE GRAAFF.

When Hitler came to power, that small place was overrun by German Tourists, that wanted to talk to all the intellectuals, looked in all the papers at City Hall and the Parish.
They did not find anything.
Finally the Engineers in Germany, who were supposed to build the vehicle, thought that it might be the VANDEGRAAFF Generator, invented in the USA.
Vandegraaff thought that he had discovered how gravity control would work. Put the sphere on the ground, charge it upto 5 million volts positive, the ground would also become five million volt positive an positive repels positive, ergo, lift-off.
The German Engineers worked on it from 1933 till 1937 without success. In 1937 they changed to magnetics. They had a weight reduction of twenty five pounds.
The day before Hitler invaded Russia, they had reached 120 pounds.
The trouble was, the craft weighed two tons.
Hitler scrapped the program and went in with the rockets.
On April 20, 1967 (yes, Hitler’s Birthday), I found the technology of the Flying Saucer.
It is a Monpole HV Generator(These big spheres underneath a Flying Saucer).
I offered the invention to my adopted Country Canada as a Birthday Present but it was ridiculed and rejected. Finally I applied for a Patent in the USA first.
One of the two witnesses, required to sign that they understand it, was the Chief Engineer of Philco/Ford in Toronto.
When I explained it he said: ” My GOd, you found it!” Then he slapped himself on the forehead and said: “My God, why did I not think about that!”
THen he told me that he had worked from 1937 till 1941 on Hitler’s Flying Disc, without success.
I was born in the town of DE GRAAFF (now called Grave, that is HIGH DUTCH).
On my sixth birthday there was a big party, as I was the first grandson.
After reading one of my Birthday Presents, a Book called: “INVENTORS OF OUR TIME” I announced that I was going to be an inventor too.
I told the family, that I was going to invent Gravity control when I was BIG.
Great Hilarity.
When I was 12, my mother asked me if I ever thought about it.
I said: “Yes, and when I find it, it will be something so simple that a High School Boy could have invented it!”
Yes, it is a practical solution of Faraday’s theoretical problem.
I got it even as a problem on my Final Exam, Physics, on my Dutch High School many years ago.
The problem:
Two metal concentric spheres do not touch and form a capacitor C. This one is charged up to a potential V.
Then the outside sphere is removed.
The remaining shere is a 1-terminal Capacitor c.
The potential on this capacitor is momentarily C/c x V.
I found that I would not need spheres to get the effect.
I used a glass tube, filled with argon.
I wrapped aluminum foil on the outside to one inch from each end.
When I “fired” the tube I had a 2-terminal Capacitor. I charged it up to 6000 Volts. When I let the (Momentary On) switches go, the following happened all at the same time :
I got the mother of all pokes and almost broke my arm when my elbow hit a wooden beam in my basement workshop.
The lights went out.
A big explosion was heard outside.
Outside, the big Power Transformer on a pole was in flames.
Ontario Hydro replaced it forthwith and blamed a squirrel who was found, well- cooked in the ruins. (Thank you Lord!)
Measuring the output in a makeshift Faraday Cage, I found I had generated more than 150,000 volts.
A later experiment, using three tubes, attracted a lightning strike out of the clear sky. (500,000 Volts!)
In those spheres of a Flying Saucer, there are a number of these tubes with the metal covering connected to the sphere.
As inside a conductor no charge can exist it goes to the outside and the sphere becomes the 1-terminal capacitor.
My US Patent Lawyer, Mr. Farkas phoned me: “I should immediatedly inform the Canadian and US Governments of this, it would probably be the greatest single invention he would handle in his lifetime and it could quite well be the Nobel Prize for me!”
He told me that he had talked to Dr. Kahn of the Hudson Institute, who told him that a study had evaluated it at $600 Billion, if the US would have it before Russia. (US Patent 4,095,162)
The US Governemnt asked me to delay it, as one application I had found was that of an inexpensive ING and the AEC had first call.
In 1980 I sugggested it to Nasa. They asked me to send a copy of the patent to the Propulsion Lab in Cleveland, Ohio.
I did, advising them to contact me before experimenting as some side effects might occur.
A letter came back: “Not interested, thank you for the copy of your patent!”
Yes, who would need them, if we could fly to the Moon in an hour?
After the Space Disasters they decided to experiment with it, did not ask me for advice and blew their own big Power Transformer Station to Kingdom Come and blamed the massive black-out in 2004 on a poor, innocent little tree.
Since then Nasa has gone into the “Rockets forever and ever” swing.
I did not write everything in the patent.
A Flying Saucer takes power right out of the aether, like Tesla (probably) did for his Pierce Arrow Car in 1931.
So now I am working (I did not get the Nobel Prize) slowly on a device to tap power out of the aether for cars and homes.
Units will be instaled by electricians and LEASED, give the investors and Taxman their due.

99999999999999999

3.- The change of History facts.........................By Liebe Gundlich

Of recent date, there are so many informations presenting alternative history facts that you must smile of it all.
It serves to be amused, but I really doubt the real history was not much of a lot of lies.
New research done by American scientists on the purported remains of Adolph Hitler found outside of his Berlin bunker are confirming “deep” Soviet KGB-GRU files that have always stated that the German Nazi leader instead of having committed suicide with his wife, Eva Braun, both were “secreted” to the United States along with top Nazi scientists in exchange for the Americans receiving Germany’s newly completed atomic bomb.

According to new reports, American archaeologist and bone specialist researcher Nick Bellantoni was allowed by Russia to conduct modern forensic tests on the skull fragment said to have belonged to Hitler and pierced by a bullet-hole said to have ended his life. Upon Bellantoni’s testing of this skull fragment at the University of Connecticut however it was found to have belonged to “a woman under 40 and not Hitler”, who was 56 when he supposedly died.

Soviet era files complied by both the KGB and GRU on the last days of Hitler’s rule over Germany state that during the last days of the Battle of Berlin (one of the bloodiest battles in all of human history and the final major offensive of the European Theatre of World War II), Hitler, his wife Eva Braun, and selected members of his personal staff were secreted out of Berlin in early April, 1945 to meet with US General George Patton where a secret armistice was signed between the Nazi Germans and the United States granting “total amnesty” for Hitler, his entourage, and top German scientists in exchange for the Americans receiving from the Nazis their just completed atomic bomb, V-2 rocket [photo 3rd left] and jet aircraft technology.

The American President, Franklin Roosevelt, upon his hearing of this secret armistice was reported to have become enraged and threatened to force the resignations of all of his top military commanders, but was prevented from doing so by his assassination by Nazi agents on April 12, 1945 by order of US General Dwight Eisenhower who feared the complete decimation of his troops should Hitler carry out his threat to us the Nazi atomic bomb against allied forces.

Upon Roosevelt’s death he was succeeded to the US Presidency by Harry Truman who “immediately” approved the secret armistice and authorized General Patton and US Army Air Forces Lieutenant General Jimmy Doolittle to “evacuate and accompany” Hitler and his entourage from Germany in late May, 1945, to one of their most secret bases located in Roswell, New Mexico, named Walker Air Force Base, and one of the largest German prisoner of war camps in the United States where the Nazi leader was held until the Americans were able to assure the Nazi leader fulfilled the terms of the armistice he had signed.

After General’s Patton and Doolittle “delivered” Hitler and his entourage to Walker Air Force Base they made a rare joint appearance in Los Angeles where they were cheered by a crowd estimated to be over 100,000 and where Patton was reported to have said, “We now have the power of God in our grasp”.

Truman echoed Patton’s sentiment about his countries gaining of Germany’s atomic bomb by writing in his diary “We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark” and wasted no time in deploying them when on August 6th and 9th of 1945 he ordered them dropped on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee, Joseph Stalin, upon his hearing of the secret armistice signed between Hitler and the US, confronted Truman at the post-war Potsdam Conference whereupon the American President “assured” the Soviet leader that the Americans would “share” Nazi Germany’s technology with the Russians in exchange for their, the Russians, declaring war on Japan, which they did on August 8, 1945, two days after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

Truman further promised Stalin that the Americans had “no objections” to Soviet Russia putting all of Eastern Europe under their “sphere of influence” in exchange for Stalin keeping from his people the secrete armistice and which became known as the Iron Curtain.

General Patton, these reports continue, was so “vehemently” against what he called “Truman’s selling out to the Commies” he began preparing his troops for an assault upon Soviet forces in occupied Germany but was never able to carry out his plans after Truman ordered his assassination in December, 1945.

With Roosevelt and Patton dead, and Stalin “contained”, the US Office of Strategic Services, Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (OSS) (JIOA) were ordered by Truman to begin fulfilling the Americans commitments made to Hitler in the secret armistice by launching Operation Paperclip which secreted into the United States most of the highest level Nazi leadership and scientific establishment, including what is, without doubt, one of the most important scientists of his time, Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun [photo 4th left with high Nazi command officials] and “father” of Nazi Germany’s atomic bomb and V-2 rocket technology.

By early 1946, and with the United States “satisfied” that all of the agreements contained in the secret armistice with Nazi Germany were fulfilled, Truman ordered the repatriation of Hitler and his entourage, to their “New Berlin” on the continent of Antarctica, and which German Navy Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz talked about in 1943 by saying, “The German submarine fleet is proud of having built for the Führer in another part of the world a Shangri-La on land, an impregnable fortress.”

In 1947, however, Truman became “deeply disturbed” over reports coming from “New Berlin” that Hitler and his Nazi forces were not only reconstituting their military might, but were also “working in league” with “ancient forces beyond our present understanding” and ordered an “immediate attack” upon the Nazis Antarctica “Shangri-La fortress”.

And so began the most mysterious battle of the 1940’s, including all of those fought in World War II, when US Navy Admiral Richard E. Byrd led an estimated 4,000 military troops from the US, Britain and Australia in an invasion of Nazi Germany’s Antarctica “New Berlin” called “Operation Highjump”, but which resulted in a crushing defeat of these forces at the hands of “new” Nazi technology, especially their V-7 “flying saucer” aircraft that Byrd was quoted as warning “could fly pole-to-pole at incredible speeds”.

Important to note that Admiral Byrd was deliberately chosen by Truman and America’s top Military leadership to undertake Operation Highjump due to his extensive knowledge of the “mysteries” hiding inside our Earth, and which we can glimpse from his log entries during his February 19, 1947 flight over the northern most reaches of our Earth:

1000 Hours- We are crossing over the small mountain range and still proceeding northward as best as can be ascertained. Beyond the mountain range is what appears to be a valley with a small river or stream running through the center portion. There should be no green valley below! Something is definitely wrong and abnormal here! We should be over ice and snow! To the portside are great forests growing on the mountain slopes. Our navigation instruments are still spinning, the gyroscope is oscillating back and forth!

1005 Hours- I alter altitude to 1400 feet and execute a sharp left turn to better examine the valley below. It is green with either moss or a type of tight knit grass. The light here seems different. I cannot see the Sun anymore. We make another left turn and we spot what seems to be a large animal of some kind below us. It appears to be an elephant! NO!!! It looks more like a mammoth! This is incredible! Yet, there it is! Decrease altitude to 1000 feet and take binoculars to better examine the animal. It is confirmed -it is definitely a mammoth-like animal! Report this to base camp.

1030 Hours- Encountering more rolling green hills now. The external temperature indicator reads 74 degrees Fahrenheit! Continuing on our heading now. Navigation instruments seem normal now. I am puzzled over their actions. Attempt to contact base camp. Radio is not functioning!

1130 Hours- Countryside below is more level and normal (if I may use that word). Ahead we spot what seems to be a city!!!! This is impossible! Aircraft seems light and oddly buoyant. The controls refuse to respond!! My GOD!!! Off our port and starboard wings are a strange type of aircraft. They are closing rapidly alongside! They are disc-shaped and have a radiant quality to them. They are close enough now to see the markings on them. It is a type of Swastika!!! This is fantastic. Where are we! What has happened. I tug at the controls again. They will not respond!!!! We are caught in an invisible vice grip of some type!

1135 Hours- Our radio crackles and a voice comes through in English with what perhaps is a slight Nordic or Germanic accent! The message is: 'Welcome, Admiral, to our domain. We shall land you in exactly seven minutes! Relax, Admiral, you are in good hands.' I note the engines of our plane have stopped running! The aircraft is under some strange control and is now turning itself. The controls are useless.

After Admiral Boyd’s crushing defeat by the Nazis fortified in their “New Berlin”, Hitler then ordered a retaliatory strike upon the United States and targeting his “former home away from” in Roswell, New Mexico, Walker Air Force Base, and which has become to known as the “Roswell Incident” after two of the Nazi Germany V-7 “saucer craft” were fired upon and downed by US Army Air Forces.

Since those titanic events in 1947 there has remained an “uneasy” truce between “New Berlin” and the current powers of the World but which Russian leaders, including Putin and Medvedev, know all to well are about to break into open warfare as the “new” Third Reich gains Global supremacy, once again, this time through its present vassal state, the United States of America.

The last American leader who set out to destroy this diabolical cabal between Nazi Germany and the United States was their first Secretary of Defense, James Vincent Forrestal, who upon his learning of the whole truth, and threatening to divulge it his fellow Americans, was summarily dismissed from his office by Truman on March 28, 1949, forced into Bethesda Naval Hospital, and then “suicided” as a “warning” to any others seeking to follow him on May 22nd.

To the current actions of “New Berlin” against our World we can see from Iranian reports where this past week one of their “saucer craft” were downed by Iranian forces, and as we can read as reported by Iran’s official news service:

“Iran's Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) has targeted and downed an unidentified shining object after sighting it over Persian Gulf waters.

“Glowing objects were sighted over the Persian Gulf. IRGC air defense targeted one of the objects successfully, forcing it to plummet and sink in the seas off Boushehr (Province),” said top regional commander, Brigadier Ali Razmjou.

“The three bright objects were detected by our radars when flying over the Persian Gulf Islands of Khark and Khargou," he added, according to a Monday report posted on IRNA.”

For their downing of one of these Nazi “saucer crafts”, Iran, of course, drew the immediate ire of the Americans whose President Obama then announced the “discovery” of a secret Iranian nuclear facility that, in fact, Iran had reported exactly as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty there are signatories to over18-months ago to the United Nations.

Important also to note about the Iranian downing of one of these Nazi “saucer crafts” is that their destination was Afghanistan, which besides the two poles of our Planet has the only other “entrance” to the “Inner Earth” and which is revered by the Nazis and their followers as the birth place of their Aryan (The word Aryan comes from the Sanskrit arya meaning dignified person or of noble birth) “master race” who they believe by right should rule our World and all of its peoples.

It goes without our saying that the reporting of these true things will be met with much derision and mocking by those whom have lived their lives surrounded by lies of not only their own history, but the much more important history of the ancients, and who if listened to now can, indeed, protect them from the many horrors to come.

One can clearly see that these peoples of today, and just as prophesized, if taken back in time, would also mock and deride the ancient Father Noah, who when “all was well” and “the skies clear” built for the protection of all who would listen protection from the Global flood to come.
The past is a gift or present upon which the present and possible futures fold and unfold and to ignore the past is looking a Gift-horse in the mouth and does little to expand the body of knowledge and clarity of thesis.
The "Die Glocke" or Bell device(s) - what do we know? What can be established as fact? What can be reasonably speculated upon as to it's manifest origins of inspiration, conceptual framework, design, engineering, manufacture, experimentation, production, testing, development, purpose and/or purposes given the two pre-cursor questions?

If a reasonable case can be made for it's existence in any form no matter how slight in that era then it certainly begs the obvious question; What was it's future relative to what may or may not have "disappeared" or gone culturally "Black"?

With the recent research that's been forwarded suggesting a potential link between the December 9 1965 Kecksburg Pennsylvania 4:45PM event and the "Die Glocke" bell device or perhaps it's derivative incarnation in some form it could make the possibility of not yet considered possibilities more possible.

The UFO Hunters 2009 TV broadcast about nazi UFOs on The History Channel brought this potential link or links to my attention in a way I previously had definitely not to that point considered. Thank you to the UFO Hunters team - high fives all-round. Perhaps the opportunity will come along to repay the favor. YouTube links will follow at the end of this post for those who have an interest but can't get the TV broadcast

Ask who, what, when, where, why and how - lather, document, repeat and rinse until truly satisfied. LOL.

I will choose to assume that readers of this UFO Magazine forum will already have familiarized themselves with at least some background on "Die Glocke" or Bell device and acknowledge the assumption that such a device existed at some point in that era's history.

First contribution. Where to start? Bells. Did Germany have bells of any type that had symbolic depictions around the bell rim?

Bells and their shape, manufacture, construction and physical properties have long held symbolic and cultural meanings and this was no different in Germany.

"Die Glocke" was said to have symbols depicted on it's lower rim in most if not by all accounts I've come across. Was there any precedence for these depictions that might suggest a genesis of tradition if not in fact the requirement that "Die Glocke" devices would remain true to this format and depiction history? Something where one can point and say "this is a bell in Germany during that era."

The 1936 Olympic Bell has quite a history - it's Gothic writings and depictions would lend some weight to the fact that Germany had bells and that there was writing depicted on it and that it was important culturally. A photo seems appropriate and this is just one of many available on the internet.



There is some evidence to the effect that which is depicted in the above photo was supposed to be a Gothic text and perhaps font but I do not entirely recognize some of the characters. I found a reference on the internet in Google Books that seems a reasonable account of what is written.

"The most celebrated detail of the bell came to be that band of Gothic script around the sound bow that declared the XIth Olympiad would be in Berlin and, set forth the cheeky legend "Ich rufe die jurgend der Welt", which the Nazis in their publicity releases of 1935 (just as the American movement for a boycott was becoming well noted) translated as "I summon the youth of the World."

Beyond the quote the same reference also has a bit more of the significant historical implications that this specific German bell connotes and denotes in the tension of the era, it's about three pages (pp 125, 4 through pp 128, 2) and was personally worth the reading. A link to the Google books page about "The Nazi Olympics By Richard D. Mandell", published by University of Illinois Press, 1987, ISBN 0252013255, 9780252013256, 316 pages.

Perhaps another forum member knows and or recognizes the font - I look and I do not see "Ich rufe die jurgend der Welt" written but I am not a linguist but I'm always willing to learn.

It would seem reasonable in light of the above photo that bells with writing on them existed in Germany at that time and suggests that writing said to be on "Die Glocke" may be important in understanding the cultural nature of the manufacturers if not the specific message or information written.

It would also seem reasonable that whatever may have been depicted on "Die Glocke" is significant enough for the manufacturers to have been included in the design at an early stage.

I'll speculate that it was a statement of purpose or a mission statement about the device and that whatever it was saying in whatever form had symbolic meaning beyond the strict functionality of the device.

Much thought has been given by others over the years to those who channeled as mediums for the various secret societies of Germany and to assume that the depictions were truly meant to be read by those who'd be able to read it says something of it's exclusivity if not secrecy of meaning. For those with a positive interest I'll include a link to an Austrian-produced hour-long Google Video "2007 - UFO - Secrets Of The Third Reich - Royal Atlantis Film GmbH" at the end of this post (thoroughly enjoyable). This 57 minute long video speaks of the trans-medial channel-people and claims that the mediums such as Maria Orsitsch (Orsic) amongst others wrote from altered perceptual states in the Sumerian alphabet and secret scripting codes of The Knights Templar, Thule, Vril and "other".

Did you ever wonder where, besides South America, Russia, The United States and perhaps Antarctica other high-value German scientific personnel related to "Die Glocke" and other projects may have found themselves during the Cold-War? I did.

Where would the best/easiest-possible Earthly mathematical, geographic, geomagnetic, geopolitical, geologically stable and geometrically advantageous location be for testing a device with the purported phenomenal and not-well-understood, possibly hazardous field properties of "Die Glocke" - a site with the most resources, safety and plausible-deniability "cover" to continue covert development whilst refining and testing such devices and their derivatives? Where?

Where might the mathematics "naturally push" as a best-spot, during the age of analog electro-mechanical instrumentation; before the onboard digital avionics computer age, such a device to be further developed beyond a nascent "we're not sure how to control it" understanding? The Poles? The Equator? What hemisphere? At what most convenient degree of latitude? What meridian of longitude is the Kecksburg event site? I wonder what facilities might have been between the Kecksburg site and the North Pole as the crow flies at that time? Where?

"There is geometry in the humming of the strings, there is music in the spacing of the spheres.", Pythagoras

I wonder who may have owned that particular "get-your-hands-dirty" facility - especially if that heavy-duty, nicely equipped and secure relatively remote facility was already run by a company known to have several designs of saucer-inspired craft and a history of "Special Projects", and whose chief designer had a classified and turbulent relationship with the U.S. military and another friendly, neighborly, co-operative sovereign nation (deep breath), who also had a keen interest in UFO and could have been privy to "Die Glocke" technology amongst other less advanced and perhaps intentionally unsuccessful propulsion techniques through interviews with German scientists in many fields? Who? Who leads to where sometimes - I hope.


The "Glocke" is a subject that can only be speculated at as the scientists who worked on it were executed as the Allies approached the area. I also think the episode on UFO Hunters showed the structure to be a frame of a water tower, and that is a good find. It may not be what people want to hear or believe, but it is the most probable answer.

One of the reasons I do not think the Kecksburg "acorn" craft/probe is a Bell type experiment is that it would of had markings on it from the US Government to identify it. That is not the case according to the witnesses. Project Moon Dust was activated to retrieve this item, according to Major Kevin Randle's research. Project Moon Dust is not activated for something that is ours.

I also do not think the Glocke was a flying craft, but an experiment that dealt in space and time. From what has been gathered, it was a very dangerous experiment that dealt with high voltages of electricity killing a few of the scientists and other workers. Since we are not speaking German, it can be safe to state that no time travel was accomplished. They may have been able to view past events, such as the ancient Roman times or possibly seen the time of the dinosaurs. Again, speculation, but fun to do.

While the experiments and the ideas of the Nazis are fascinating, the vast majority of them did not get past the drawing board. The funding for the projects was not there, and the Nazis tended to spread the wealth which created much more failure than success. The expense of the war was a high cost not only in monetary terms, but mainly in people. The Allies cut off much of the supplies to the Nazis, and there were many multiples of freedom fighters making sure the Nazis did not plunder too much from the lands they occupied.

This is a fascinating subject, but can only be speculated at as there is very little documentation left on what the Glocke really was.

"The "Glocke" is a subject that can only be speculated at as the scientists who worked on it were executed as the Allies approached the area."

I agree that as many as sixty "get-their-hands-dirty" scientists and technicians were murdered by the SS.

I also think the episode on UFO Hunters showed the structure to be a frame of a water tower, and that is a good find. It may not be what people want to hear or believe, but it is the most probable answer.

I agree that the Fly Trap may indeed may have had a water reservoir on it's superior surface, however research by others (that I intend to cite in a later post) does make note of a significant conduit that leads to the center of the Fly Trap. British aerial reconnaissance from the 1941 - 1942 time-frame might clarify the existence of such a reservoir and reveal more about any potential role the "Henge" may have or may not have played in testing the Bell or other devices.

One of the reasons I do not think the Kecksburg "acorn" craft/probe is a Bell type experiment is that it would of had markings on it from the US Government to identify it.

Markings of any known agency would certainly have been mentioned by claimed witnesses Rosanski, Bulebush or perhaps Blystone and certainly would have risked overt disclosure of that which may have been understandably an unacknowledged program if such a program existed or exists at all.

"Project Moon Dust was activated to retrieve this item, according to Major Kevin Randle's research. Project Moon Dust is not activated for something that is ours."

Yes, the Moon Dust personnel were certainly "Johnny-on-the-Spot" and on short notice too. Perhaps they were given a little advance warning something was headed their way so to speak. I will have more to add on this in a subsequent post at some point.

I also do not think the Glocke was a flying craft, but an experiment that dealt in space and time.

I agree that "Die Glocke" was not a device built with conventional flight in mind and I also agree with you that it may have had some effects in 4-space.

From what has been gathered, it was a very dangerous experiment that dealt with high voltages of electricity killing a few of the scientists and other workers.

I concur entirely about the presence of danger and thank you for pointing out the high-voltage nature as I will refer to that necessity at least a few times on this particular thread. Some contend "Die Glocke" had componentry that may have released ionizing radiation amongst it's other local effects and I find this of genuine interest.

Since we are not speaking German, it can be safe to state that no time travel was accomplished.

I tend to agree with you kidflash2008 - at least to this point in my research.

They may have been able to view past events, such as the ancient Roman times or possibly seen the time of the dinosaurs. Again, speculation, but fun to do.

Other research echoes this - I do not know and I am firmly skeptical of such claims; until I see some sort of evidence - no matter how slight. I personally am always happy to be mistaken when it leads to a firmer understanding of a truth.

While the experiments and the ideas of the Nazis are fascinating, the vast majority of them did not get past the drawing board.

My mind is open on this but one never really knows until one satisfies their personal curiosity.

I'll go into it in more depth another day but here's a bit on an atomic scientist placement from a publicly accessible link to a publicly funded national radio news piece from June 5 1947 - German Scientists Come to Canada through Operation Matchbox. Click here for the link.

A quote from the sidebar information at the link:

"Under the program name Operation Matchbox, the Allied forces recruited top-notch German scientists at the end of the Second World War. By October 1950, 42 German scientists had moved to Canada. The scientists were screened by a British military and civilian panel and were given temporary migrant status for one year in Canada."
My question would be is why did the SS execute so many scientists who were working on the project we only know as the Bell? Were they afraid the scientists would fall in the hands of the Soviets, and would have preferred the United States instead? Or was it because it was something that would have been very damning to the Nazis?

Jim Marrs does not have too much information on what the Bell was. He did find out about the execution of the scientists, and also finds some mysterious shipments of what could be atomic bombs. Those atomic bombs could have been the ones we used on Japan, and he makes the case for that argument quite well.

Saucer technology did not work, as it was very unstable to fly and never got over six feet off the ground.

Since the majority of the work on the Bell was done in the bunker like areas inside the mountain, I would speculate it did not have anything to do with flight. The electrical energy they needed (that was fatal to a few scientists) does suggest the magnetic theory. Gravity, magnetism, and electricity may have to do with either a new energy source, or a very powerful weapon. Since I believe the Secret Weapon was the atomic bomb, then the Bell was not a weapon to blow things up.
Here are a few things the Bell could been:
Teleportation: moving items from one area to another. This could be used to move troops and supplies without worry of the transport method being destroyed. That would also of changed the course of the war if possible.
Wormhole technology: Another way to teleport items and people. Also a way to see the past and a possible future. Wormholes allegedly bend time too.
Deathray: The basic death laser that could destroy a building or possibly a city.

The above are just some of the possibilities of what the scientists could have been working on. Hopefully, some of the documents of what it was survived the destruction.
"Saucer technology did not work, as it was very unstable to fly and never got over six feet off the ground."

I'd be happy if it got six feet of altitude no matter how unstable - but "Die Glocke" would not appear to be a "saucer craft". However, if it was any sort of a field producing device that had any mass cancellation properties of any sort it could be seen as a potential step toward accessing a propulsive force of some description even if that was not by intention of those who built the device - serendipity in research.

If the Sporrenberg war crimes affidavit existed then it may still exist - dead scientists and technicians can't help but there is always the possibility of archived documents coming to light in the future.

For now I'll stay with the assumption stipulated earlier - that for the purposes of this thread "Die Glocke" existed.

The connection to Kecksburg postulated by some and points that kidflash2008 has raised have produced a couple of useful bits I'll add to my perspective on the Dec 9 1965 Kecksburg event. If it was a human manufactured derivative of the "Bell" it had to come from somewhere on this planet. The earliest sightings of the Kecksburg aerial phenomenon are reportedly from Canada.

kidflash2008 has raised the valid concern about the Kecksburg device having no known governmental agency markings like "USAF" or "DOE" adorning it and therefore (if I understand the reasoning used correctly) could not be a project of any known government agency. I gave that some thought and found at least two projects of the United States of America that were at one time covert but in US Military control that would appear to have even less markings than the Kecksburg body.

The first example is from the 1970's and was a Joint USAF-DARPA project involving low-observability and what is commonly referred to as "stealth technology". The name of that Northrup project was "Tacit Blue". Here is a link to it's fact sheet at Wright-Patterson AFB Museum site if one clicks on the available photos and looks one can't readily see markings of any type on the craft. This craft was piloted by US military personnel Col. Don Cornell ,Lt. Col. Russ Easter, Lt. Col. Ken Dyson and Maj. Dan Vanderhorst. Please click here to view the fact sheet and photos at the national museum of the US air Force. or click the following numbers to open the photos of Tacit Blue: 1, 2, 3, 4. I do not see any markings, however I'm always prepared to be made aware of any.

The second example is a bit humorous considering some of the discounted theories regarding an SR-71 engine nacelle and the Kecksburg event but what I'll cite as "unmarked" is from the same era as Kecksburg - there was the highly classified USAF-Lockheed Tagboard program at one time called D-21. Some versions (perhaps all) of this UAV were unmarked by military service insignia. Click here to see a large photo of the D-21. There is a video from 1966 involving a D-21 and it's SR-71 derived MD-21 mother ship during a fatal accident if one searches YouTube for "MD-21 crash" so the timeframe is close to The Kecksburg event.

A third lesser example (it has large numbers on it) is the Lockheed Sea Shadow - at one time it carried no markings of service insignia but it may now carry more markings - theses are examples of unmarked covert projects paid for and manned by forces of the US military and "other" agencies and corporations. To view the picture of the Sea Shadow to which I refer click here.

For my own research I will choose to accept that at least some covert US sponsored projects are unmarked.

Just the claimed glyphs around the perimeter of the base of the "acorn" or "bell" as described by Blystone, Bulebush and Rosanski are the only markings mentioned as kidflash2008 has pointed out.

An aside: Bylstone has actually used the word "bell" specifically when describing it's silhouette under the tarp on the military flatbed as it transported "something" away from the site. He may have been the first to do so on video.

If one wanted to dissuade or plausibly deny the notion of ownership of the body recovered in Kecksburg what better way to take advantage than by machining some not easily deciphered symbols into the outer surface that suggest "alien" or some" lost tongue"?

I say machined and by that I mean "cut" into the surface that had the glyphs displayed - as such a device as "Die Glocke" or it's potential 1960's derivative may have generated significant surface temperature so that painted markings would not be durable. The glyphs "could" be communication of a type perhaps that of Sumerian text or Templar or Vril code but at this time I'm inclined to lean toward the glyphs as being potentially a disinformative "red-herring" of a human manufacturer wishing anonymity for themselves.

I also came across two USAF rocket launches in Canada on December 9th 1965 that to my best knowledge were not reported in regard to Kecksburg by any source so far even to eliminate them as possibly involved. One rocket launch into space occurred at 3:33PM Eastern time and another was launched at 5:15PM Eastern from a site at 58°44'4.20"N 93°48'56.60"W in Canada. The second occurs too late to be of any interest and the first doesn't help my research any at this time but I don't discount that someone (perhaps with an ETH angle to their research) could make use of this knowledge. The first one was a Nike Cajun rocket on a "Sphere Aeronomy" mission and has AFCRL listed as the sponsoring US military agency involved. It reached apogee at 86 miles altitude.

One other bit was found today - Operation Matchbox brought at least 55 German scientists and technicians to Canada (perhaps more) which I found strange considering the US operation called Paperclip claims over 200 were brought to the USA. This number of 55 going to Canada seems comparatively high and possibly anomalous. I will try and get some better numbers and government documented confirmation at some point. The bit I found said the following:

"In March 1987, Canada's Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals (also known as the Deschênes Commission) recommended the investigation of 55 German scientists and technicians who came to Canada as part of Operation Matchbox. The operation presented a serious security problem in as much as those scientists might well have been involved in the Nazi war effort."

The Deschênes Commission came to a conclusion with the result of discouraging further investigation.

So it would seem that at least one German "radiation chemist" (a dated term) came to Canada in 1947 and other scientists of different disciplines followed. It would also seem that not all projects of the US military get markings identifying them as such. It would also seem that on the day Kecksburg occurred US military forces launched a rocket into space from Canada which demonstrates such activity has a history.

Where on Earth, if what was found in Kecksburg was built by the hand of man, could such a device have had as a point of origin?

The rocket launches in Canada on December 9 1967 were by the US Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratory and the particular launch applicable to the timeframe of Kecksburg what was called a "Sphere Aeronomy" mission - interesting subject matter. Magneto-ionic coupling and triple splitting of waves and the like.

To my surprise I projected the flight path of the Kecksburg object along the line taken from the Joseph Farrell published "Reich of the Black Sun" on page 341 and it points to the launch facility those two rockets came out of. There is an interesting colonial fort there - unusual geometry when viewed from above.

An exact quote from Farrel:

"And finally, there is yet another odd point that may connect the Keckburg Acorn to the Kammler Bell. We have already seen that some "Nazi survival myths" have a secret German base close to the Arctic, operating at a remote location in Canada near Hudson Bay. While I discount the idea, it is perhaps worth noting that the trajectory of the Kecksburg Acorn as it tracked from Canada into the US to its final crash site in Pennsylvania, would, if extended north into Canada, place it along a line more or less where the "Arctic Nazi survival myth" places the alleged secret German base."

I'm not yet ready to accept that the trajectory on the map is accurate and I've not yet attempted to gather and compile any sighting locations and chronology independently. There are some other potentially complicating aspects in regard to the trajectory and certain reports don't seem to fit in a clear manner as there were other atmospheric events at or about the time in question. There's not much in the way of electricity supply in the community where the rocket launch site is.

I went through the Herzburg Institute Non-Meteoric phenomena reports for the time and didn't find a thing (it could be there under an unlikely listing) but there are the DND, RCMP and Department of Transport databases to be looked at when time allows. A first or early sighting most Northerly in Canada would be helpful.

I did some searches on The Defense Research Board of Canada to see what the Canadian Military might have been pursuing in 1967. I found many interesting projects. Here's just one:

1967 Defense Research Board of Canada, Grant number 5540-02:
Authors: S. R. Seshadri a; K. L. Bhatnagar
Guided Waves on an Infinite Cylindrical Cavity in a Magneto-ionic Medium In Circularly Symmetric Mode
Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Toronto, Toronto 5, Canada
Published in the International Journal of Electronics Volume 22, Issue 3 March 1967 , pages 239 - 259



From a corporate website:
"Uranium deposits are found all over the world. The largest deposits of uranium are found in Australia, Kazakhstan and Canada. High-grade deposits are only found in Canada." Source: Cameco.

I do not at this time entertain the notion the rocket launching facility was "the works" for "Die-Glocke" development and it's follow-on devices - I have a much better fitting place in mind that wasn't too far from a reactor facility whose main product is specialty radioactive isotopes.

If the Kecksburg object was one of ours, it still would of had a marking on it to identify it if it ever crashed. Even the most Top Secret craft would of had some types of markings, just so people who worked on it knew the serial numbers.

Static Displays at museums sometimes get a new coat of paint. The serial numbers are not used anymore, so they may get painted over. I remember working on "demilitarizing" a B-52 for a static display. All the components are removed and the plane is usually repainted. The Buffs would usually keep their jet numbers, and also have the original art work repainted on it for historical purposes.

NASA tracked the Soviet satellite and shows it fell in the Indian Ocean. It also would of tracked the other rocket launches by other countries. It should be in their public record.

I also was discussing this case with my mother, who is a navy veteran. She worked with classified crypto messages and knows a thing or two about the military way. We both know that this case and Roswell just do not make sense when one looks at it through a military point of view. With the Cold War going on in the sixties, any craft that would of been the bell would be run by the military.

It does seem strange that I am advocating that the Kecksburg acorn is alien in origin. There are many questions about Kecksburg that need to be answered. There are many questions about the Glocke, and one of the major ones is why were the scientists who worked on it executed?


I neither support the Kecksburg event as being alien or human of origin at this time - but for the purposes of this specific thread (as stated several times) I am looking for indications to perhaps clarify that by making the arbitrary assumption; "what if it were of human origins". If you feel strongly that is not a reasonable assumption for the purposes of speculation kidflash2008 then perhaps create a separate thread to that effect - that's why I put qualifiers in what I proposed - to avoid useless and wasteful haggling with those of opinion "other" over the most minor of minutiae having no real impact in any meaningful or positive manner. I've had enough of that observed behavior from my time at RMC and other sites on the Net and I do intend to enjoy myself this late in life.

Cosmos 96 - I have a Space-Track screen capture and other ephemeris data that would support the notion that Cosmos 96 was not involved and I may post it at some point but it just seems a bit without use. A link to Space-Track Login for those who may wish to confirm. For me, Cosmos 96 is a non-starter.

the US military would be actually "running the show" if of human origins. More on that later. Wink. I'm not disappointed that I could not persuade you a little more effectively in regard to my position of the US military not always being "as advertised" and 'with markings" but you do disclose your relationship to the military so your position of dwell on this one small aspect is understood and accepted if not agreed with.


In regards to the markings: It is possible they may have something with no markings noticed up front. One would have to closely examine the craft to find the markings. I should clarify that you may not be wrong on this one, but I also think the military would want someone to call them should they lose their equipment.

I also do not think they would test any highly classified craft or item in any other area except the desolate areas they have such test facilities. That is why I think the Phoenix boomerang sightings are not ours as there are many areas to test fly an aircraft, and a metropolitan area is not one of them.

I am also sure the US government and military are also trying to figure out what the Glocke was.

I also want to thank you for doing such tireless research in one of the more fascinating areas of research. The Nazis were fairly good at destroying many records before anyone reached the bases. What survives are bits and pieces, and the few people willing to talk of the subjects. Remember, it is still taboo to state one worked for the Nazi war effort. I think that dampens the knowledge and release of information until some death bed confessions.


It would seem a potential possibility that Viktor Schauberger and the German Third Reich's atomic scientists may have crossed paths? Maybe; their mathematics sure would have - the goal to minimize the critical mass needed for fissionable chain-reaction was "top shelf" stuff. Schauberger's work does hold the promise of exposing matter to "vakuum" in more ways than a simple lack of atmosphere. Wink. Naked neutrons.

The launch of a Nike Cajun rocket out of Churchill Manitoba just before the Kecksburg event at about 4:45PM December 9, 1965 was an Auroral launch and the Sphere Aeronomy missions were to do with magnetospheric and ionospheric observations. These December 9, 1965 observations are buried in the AFCRL (Air Force Cambridge Research Labs) archives and remain unavailable to me at this time.

Using one of the three approximations I've found so far of the Kecksburg object's terminal-phase trajectory, it would seem to originate on a line that passes very close to the rocket launch facility at Churchill Manitoba. The "Polar Bear Capital of The World" (Churchill) offers a great security environment - all overt approaches are controlled by the terrain and limited means of access and those that are not so overt are frequented by bears (when they are not in one of three Polar Bear jails).

Could "Die-Glocke" or more specifically a follow-on development 1960's device built after "Die-Glocke" have originated at Churchill? Maybe; some circumstances would seem favorable and some less-so. A straight line on a map is not all that convincing and at some point I may have better trajectory data to work with. A friend is trying to knit some maps together with some overlays of existing "paths" to show the extrapolation of various potential flight paths from Canadian airspace into Kecksburg PA - that could take some time, and the conflicting "Ontario Meteor" data is an unwelcome complication that needs an accounting.

Some graphics may help others with the Churchill site and it's features, and to my personal satisfaction some seem of note with only one "problem"; hydro-electric availability. Even today although Manitoba does have two of the highest voltage transmission lines in the world (PDF link) - I can't put them "into" Churchill until 1973 at this point in my research. In 1965 the transmission lines into Churchill were no where near the 1 MV and 0.9 MV DC lines of today if any transmission lines were present at all - I don't see any on the maps I've looked at so far. My research is not complete but it seems that in 1965 the community may have used an oil-burning electrical-generation plant. It is a great place for a geomagnetic observatory, a deep-water port, has rail access, and at the time a US Army Military installation called Fort Churchill that has a very heavy-duty airport runway for such a small community and as a bonus had a "not-well-known" but "not hidden" rocket launch complex. Wink.

Otherwise, Churchill lacks the technological support infrastructure one might associate with something like "Die-Glocke"; this is not the Lockheed "Skunk Works" with 4500 employees there, but that is not to say that by 1965 huge amounts of infrastructure "would" have been necessary or desirable during testing of such a device for that particular very remote location. But there could have been such resources available elsewhere.

Churchill "could" be involved with the Kecksburg event but my feeling is that it may have been in some support or other ancillary capacity.

Isn't the Prince of Wales' mom the Head of the House of Windsor? Isn't her husband a UFO aficionado? Wasn't his highly decorated, late, assassinated cousin also interested in UFO study? Isn't there an historical relationship between House Windsor and Germany? Weren't they once the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha? Are they not of the House of Hanover lineage? LOL.

By some accounts (if not all) "Die-Glocke" had an activation energy level that required both high-voltage and significant current. DC voltage can always be transformed, rectified, stepped-up and switched (amongst other permutations) but amperage is what performs the work - "Die-Glocke" may have been a "thirsty beast" in many ways.

I wonder where one might find 100,000-165,000 Amp field-aligned current and a voltage in the 100MV range? Perhaps "Die-Glocke" had a potential to access those sort of Joules? Or perhaps it "attracts" that order of magnitude of purely electrical "interest" from it's environment? Wink. A field of fields in the weathered spirals of space and time.

"Die-Glocke" would seem at some level about energies of high enough strata to be worth the risk of pursuing - "up a notch" from nuclear and potentially much more "green" in delivery and yet, if put "not in the best hands", could be the ultimate weapon. An accident looking for a place to happen? A lightning-rod for disaster? Or a "lightning-rod" of a different sort?

An exploitation of a "dark" secret of the natural order of the universe(s) "could" be perceived as valuable enough by some to be "worth" all the security and potential subterfuge, alleged executions, human smuggling, human experimentation, slave labor and expense - not to mention the extreme technical requirements.

The Kecksburg event demonstrates the sort of "interest-level" that may be involved by various agencies and non-agencies of various governments and non-governmental concerns as many first-hand witness testimonies support.

The earliest Vril-work (the first two years of testing) has my eye as the "kernel" technology on which "Die-Glocke" may have been built to expand and build upon into other fields and effects.
"Johnson examined the orbital data for Cosmos 96 and was able to calculate when it would have passed over Pennsylvania if it had been in orbit that day. The time, when it traveled from North to South, was at approximately 6:20 am. The Kecksburg object came down at 4:45 p.m. “I can tell you categorically, that there is no way that any debris from Cosmos 96 could have landed in Pennsylvania anywhere around 4:45 p.m.,” said Johnson in an interview on October 10, 2003. “That’s an absolute. Orbital mechanics is very strict.”

The US Space Command reported in 1991 that Cosmos 96 crashed in Canada at 3:18 a.m. Johnson does not have information about the time of demise of Cosmos 96, but he did confirm that it was over Canada at this time.

One part of Cosmos 96 could not have stayed in orbit until 4:45 p.m. after the object came apart hours earlier, as some had speculated."

A Link to a Czech-site that has a bit more on 1965-094A - Kosmos 96. A link to the Google Translation site.
There has also been a highly classified name from the Canadian Defense that was leaked recently (I cannot remember the name, but I believe Ice was in it). Can you find out more about this? Is there any speculation on what type of highly classified work the Canadian Defense could be doing? (Possibly related to HAARP?)
"There has also been a highly classified name from the Canadian Defense that was leaked recently (I cannot remember the name, but I believe Ice was in it). Can you find out more about this? Is there any speculation on what type of highly classified work the Canadian Defense could be doing? (Possibly related to HAARP?)"

I know of no on-going investigation of any enlisted-person in the Canadian military or any of recent memory in regard to information leaks. There was a case that effectively "closed" CFB Shelburne (it's automated now) in 1984 or 1985 to do with Russians and lesbianism and some key control staff. Yes, the same Shelburne as mentioned in relation to Shag Harbour back in '67.

I do know of potential leaks directly attributable to the previous Minister of Defense (Bernier) and some NATO planning and briefing documents were in fact left unsecured for 5 weeks with a very interesting woman who is in "the security business" and whose former and now deceased spouse was a "patched" Hell's Angel. Her name is Julie Coulliard - and like so many others has "a tell-all" book. By all estimations no critical NATO-data was lost. Wink.

Very recently Canadian Forces did have an intel officer (a Major's rank) die quite mysteriously and suddenly while in her residence at the base in Khandahar. This unfortunate situation is still "open" and in need of public resolution.

Yes, HAARP - you may just be onto something. Wink. Canada would be ideal for monitoring it's performance especially in relation to both day-time and nocturnal Auroral interactions.

DRDC is just one place? Big smile.

You may have different data than I kidflash2008 and if you could be a bit more specific I'd inquire discreetly. Please PM me if that is your wish. Research in Canada over the years has been largely overlooked - especially research sponsored by other nations.

I know of no security leaks within DND that relate to the Kecksburg event or "Die-Glocke", but I'm always prepared to explore one.

0000000000000000000

4.- Deep Impact’ proven Sitchin’s Theory?.................................. By Director Shafer.

On 4th July 2005 NASA celebrated American Independence Day in style. It had sent a space-probe called Deep Impact towards a run-of-the-mill short period comet called Tempel 1. As the probe approached, it dropped a smaller probe, about the size of a washing machine, into the path of the approaching comet. The impact not only created a great fireworks display for the watching telescopes, but it also promised to give astronomers a rare glimpse of the interior of a comet.
Over a month later, we are still awaiting the results of the spectrographs taken by various research groups connected with the project. It turns out that we have some more months to wait yet. One wonders why.
Recently, the author and journalist Linda Moulton Howe published an interview with Dr Carey Michael Lisse, Prof. of Physics at the University of Maryland, a member of the Deep Impact Science Team (18). He was about to attend the 9th International Asteroids, Comets and Meteors Conference in Brazil, and shared some of the material he was about to present there. He explained that the scientific work was still on-going, dependent as it was upon calibration of spectrographic data. But preliminary results were both exciting, and also rather puzzling.
It turns out that Comet Tempel 1, which is composed mostly of water ice, contains every rock-forming element found on Earth. It also contains carbonates, indicating rock similar to limestone. This is very odd, because limestone requires a liquid water environment to form, as well as other ingredients like silicates.
How did a comet meandering slowly through the frigid outer solar system end up with limestone in its rocky composition? It doesn’t seem possible, based upon our current knowledge of the formation of Solar System objects.

There’s another problem emerging from the Deep Impact data. Comet Tempel 1 doesn’t seem to have iron amongst its elemental constituents. This is also very odd, because iron is a common element in the Solar System. Now, it may turn out that these preliminary findings aren’t complete, and that other data has yet to come out to explain these oddities. But if there’s some truth to this information then there should be some good news for Mr Zachariah Sitchin here. Why? Because it may be possible that this humble comet is about to prove his “12th Planet Theory”.

If limestone can’t form in a standard comet environment, then the implication is that the semi-rocky interior of Tempel 1 first formed in a planetary embryo, if not part of a full-scale major planet. This comet would seem to have once been part of something much bigger than itself. Keen-eyed readers will recall a moment ago that Professor Lisse said that all of the elements found in rocks on Earth are present in this comet. Is this a coincidence? What’s going on here?

Lee Covino, the New Yorker who has just edited my new book, is very excited about the Deep Impact data (or lack of it so far). He thinks that there is something strange about this news blackout, because this data should have been available almost straight away. Instead, the scientists are sitting on it, and plan to release it gradually through the astronomical and astrophysical journals. That seems to run against the grain of media-friendly science, where NASA catapults every shred of news into the media as soon as it’s available. One would have thought that Deep Impact was a media-friendly piece of science that would command world attention. So why the caution being displayed by NASA scientists on this occasion? Is there something about this data which is making them uncomfortable?


Well, what if Comet Tempel 1 is basically a big chunk of watery Earth rock? What if the composition of its elements and isotopes matches that of our own planet? How on Earth could the scientists explain that one? Comet Tempel 1 is a standard short range comet, implying that its composition may be shared by other comets. They can’t all be icy rocks originally from Earth, can they?



They could if Sitchin is correct. If Earth’s primordial precursor was a larger, watery version of our world, and was struck by a massive planetary object, then chunks of that early Earth could have been sent spinning through the Solar System. Earth itself then migrated inwards, as we have discussed above. Not only that, but such a theory would explain the lack of iron on Comet Tempel 1. The iron making up the Earth tends to sink to the core, meaning that a surface strike would have sent a disproportionate quantity of iron-poor rocks into space. Hence, the resultant comets would have no iron. But they would have plenty of water ice, as this comet shows.



If the isotopic ratio of the water blasted out of Tempel 1 by Deep Impact is the same as Earth, then Zachariah Sitchin will have good reason to host his own fireworks party. The data will prove that these comets resulted from a massive planetary strike on Earth early in the history of the Solar System.



Some commentators are deeply suspicious of the way the Deep Impact data is being handled. Richard Hoagland pulls no punches in his assessment of the situation. He has shown that the claimed difficulties of obtaining spectra, cited by Dr Lisse, are contradicted by early press releases by the Deep Impact team (19). These seemed to indicate that everything went really well just after the impact event, and that great spectra were dutifully obtained by the scientific teams involved in the project. That’s not what Dr Lisse now says, though. He claims that the mother craft’s instruments were not correctly aligned. It’s not yet clear how such a discrepancy could be accounted for, or how much reliable data will be forthcoming publicly over the coming months. Richard Hoagland smells a rat, and I can certainly see the motive behind it if he turns out to be right.



More details have emerged in September about some of the unusual compounds found within Tempel 1:



“There are also surprise ingredients, such as clay and chemicals in seashells called carbonates. These compounds were unexpected because they are thought to require liquid water to form. “How did clay and carbonates form in frozen comets?” asked Lisse. “We don’t know, but their presence may imply that the primordial solar system was thoroughly mixed together, allowing material formed near the Sun where water is liquid, and frozen material from out by Uranus and Neptune, to be included in the same body.”



Also found were chemicals never seen before in comets, such as iron-bearing compounds and aromatic hydrocarbons, found in barbecue pits and automobile exhaust on Earth. The silicates spotted by Spitzer are crystallized grains even smaller than sand, like crushed gems. One of these silicates is a mineral called olivine, found on the glimmering shores of Hawaii’s Green Sands Beach.” (20)



Either all of the terrestrial bodies in the solar system have similar chemical constituents and compounds present, or Tempel 1 does indeed sound like a chip of the old block; Earth! Scientists working on the project wonder whether Tempel 1 is truly representative of typical solar system comets, however (21). Indeed, they go further, suggesting that there may be no such thing as a ‘typical’ comet at all. Tempel 1, which originate in the Edgeworth-Kuiper Belt, does not share similar characteristics with other comets which are from the same vicinity. Perhaps this suggests that the physical environment in the distant Edgeworth-Kuiper Belt was once more complex than previously thought, which would be an interesting revelation in itself.



This comet may be provoking more questions than providing answers.
If Sitchen could be right about this, he could be right about other things…

If someone can believe in God, a supernatural being, that noone alive has seen, why is it so hard to except Sitchin’s theory? On one hand you have a supernatural being and on the other you have an actual physical being or beings? Which is more easy to believe?

Sitchin’s theory more unbelieveable than a being no one has ever laid eyes on whereas there seems to be substance to the thoughts Sitchin provokes regarding our Earth’s past history. He seems to have a better grasp of how our ancestors had the expansive knowledge they did than a cryptic book filled with visions and omnipotent invisible beings.

88888888888888888888888888888888.


5.- Creationism being taught in schools........................... By Natalicio Infante.

While I too prefer economic conservatism, and the govt keeping out of
social issues, I'll put up with some social "conservatism".

Social conservatism, the next best thing to ancestor worship.
Seriously, if we didn't have all those social rules that social
conservatives break as often as social liberals, then where would we
be as a society?
another deranged right wing fanatic put up and elected by the
christianists in the US. there's no limit to the curren insanity
of
america's right. this woman once said she'd stop everyone in the
US
from having sex, including masturbating.

The USA outlaws all forms of lewdness and smut.
No more anything from porno mags to bikini beaches.
Bring back prohibition of alchohol as well. And ban
those ciggs. And give even more money to the "war
on drugs." Then I'll buy some dilapidated old farm
house about 100 meters north of the USA/Canada
border, some place in Manitoba, and set up my Emporium.
I'll sell porn in paper, vids, and digital. I'll sell booze.
I'll sell ciggs. I'll have gambling. I'll sell all the stuff that
the USA has gone schizo about. And every single one
of them will be legal in Canada. I'll make MILLIONS!

This has appeared in several creationist sources:
Darwinism is "a theory that has been put to the test
and found false".

Here's a typical example of the quote
mine:http://www.icr.org/article/more-anti-darwinian-scientists-exerpted-fr...

This comes from
G. Nelson and N. Platnick. 1984. Systematics and
evolution. Pages
143-158 in M.-W. Ho and P. T. Saunders (eds.), Beyond
Neo-Darwinism.
Academic Press, London.
Here's the full sentence, much less of a quality
sound bite: "We believe
that Darwinism has an identity within the area of
biological
systematics, that it has a history within that
discipline, that it is,
in short, a theory that has been put to the test and
found false."
You can see why the quote is truncated, because the
full sentence
reveals that the import of the sentence is
incomprehensible without
reading much more of the article. Most importantly,
the full sentence
shows that Nelson & Platnick are referring to a
special and restricted
meaning of "Darwinism", as it applies to systematics.
The next paragraph
explains the context: "Systematic literature abounds
in arguments about
the meaning and significance of two key concepts:
paraphyletic group and
center of origin. If our discussion contains anything
novel it is partly
the perception that these two concepts characterize a
Darwinian theory
of systematics; it is partly in the perception that
this theory has been
falsified; and it is partly in the perception of what
has been achieved
in the process." In other words, the "Darwinism" that
Nelson & Platnick
think has been falsifying has absolutely nothing to
do with either
natural selection or common descent. It concerns
instead the ideas that
paraphyletic groups should be considered real
entities, and that taxa
generally originate in small geographic regions.
Needless to say,
creationists (and anyone else except a few
specialists) would be
unlikely to care about these aspects of "Darwinism",
and certainly
indifferent about whether they had been falsified.
The quote gains all
its utility from a misunderstanding of just what
Nelson & Platnick meant
by "Darwinism" in that sentence.
Nelson & Platnick were probably being deliberately
sensational when they
wrote the quoted sentence, enough so that they felt
obliged to offer a
corrective later on in the chapter: "In this
connection, we do not imply
that developments within systematics falsify the
theory of evolution as
that word is normally understood -- the appearance of
life in all its
diversity through historical process of long
duration. Rather the data
of systematics are a massive corroboration of
evolution in that sense,
which is distinct from any notion of theory properly
termed Darwinian."
Thanks to John Wilkins for sending me a PDF of the
book chapter.


The paragraph beginning: "I have left till last ..."
Obviously, according to Wilkins, Dawkins is lying here. I
have to
suspect, given the identical ellipses, that Dawkins
somehow got this
from a creationist source. There's a lesson for us all
not to jump to
conclusions: read the entire piece and then try to
understand what the
authors meant. It really isn't all that difficult.
So the Biblical authors really meant that God did not know
where Adam
was hiding?
As is your habit, you precede a non sequitur with a word
suggesting that
it follows logically from the preceding. Which it never
does. And yes,
they did.
"There's a lesson for us all not to jump to conclusions:
read the
entire piece and then try to understand what the authors
meant. It
really isn't all that difficult" (John Harshman).
By saying the Genesis author was saying that God omnipotent
did not
know where Adam was hiding is ridiculous, John.
The bible is a compilation of a great many stories written by
a great
many authors. Genesis itself is such a compilation, and even
the
creation story was assembled from multiple sources. For that
reason,
reading "the entire piece" in this case doesn't mean reading
all the
bible and trying to reconcile everything it says. The main
relevant
portion is the creation story itself. And the God of that
story is by no
means omnipotent or omniscient. He makes mistakes, regrets
things,
nearly panics, and really doesn't know where Adam is. But
that isn't the
silliest thing he does. The silliest is when, finding that
Adam is
lonely, he creates all sorts of animals and parades them past
the man to
see if they are suitable companions. I, not being blinded by
a delusion
of the book's crystalline perfection, am able to read it for
comprehension where you apparently can't.
Defense of an egregious double standard. Like I have always
said in
this context: remembering that you are an Atheist-Evolutionist
explains everything rather instantly.
Rather, it's a way of avoiding the necessity of explanation.
I'm wrong
because I'm an atheist-evolutionist, therefore you don't have
to present
any argument against what I actually say.
God is well established to be omnipotent by Genesis 3.
Read Genesis 1:1 and the remainder of the chapter as well as all
of
chapter 2. The context of chapter 3 is chapters 1 and 2.
I find nothing about omnipotence in any of those places. Perhaps
you
will present your reasoning.
Creation of heaven, earth, stars, the biosphere and its
inhabitants
(Genesis 1 & 2) does not assume and support omnipotence?
No. Great power, certainly, but not omnipotence. I will agree that
the
God of Genesis 1 appears to be more powerful than the God in
Genesis 2,
though. The first speaks things into being, while the second is
more
like a potter or sorcerer. The second one makes Adam out of dust,
and
Eve out of a rib, while the first just says "Let there be X" and
there
is X. These are two different stories (at least), with two
different
views of God. And the God of the second story (who is also the God
of
Noah) is fully capable of being deceived, changing his mind, and
being
unable to find someone who is hiding.
If you believe that the KJV is an inerrant translation, you could
try
Genesis 17:1, where "God almighty" introduces himself,. If you
don't,
you get into the debate about the translation of "El Shaddai" My
favourite theory is Lutzky's, not because it is correct (it most
certainly isn't) but because of the implications it would have if it
were. according to her, it should read as "big boobs" and slipped
through the editing process when other references to his previous
job
as a fertility Godess were purged.
Not so sure about your counterexample. There is the obvious reading
as a rhetorical device did your mother say "where are you, young
man"
when you were a) in trouble and b) she new perfectly well were you
were, but wanted to give you the chance to hand yourself in
happened
to me a lot) .
That's the preferred reading among fundamentalists. But the text
itself
implies nothing of the sort.

Well, I'd say the text does not give sufficient data to discriminate
between the two readings. But I don't find one less intuitive/more
interpretative than the other

Then there is the reading of "are you with me or
against me"? And finally, an omnipotent being can of course chose
not
to use his power in a given situation. That is an interpretation of
omniscience in particular, though a somewhat recent one (strangely,
just when we became aware of privacy as a value) - omniscience in
this
case is deemed "inherent omniscience" - could find out everything
but
often chooses not to, to give us some privacy - bit like the
government
You can introduce anything to the text that you like, and interpret
anything as really meaning something other than what it says.

I think backspace has a bad influence on you

Read the story. God is walking in the Garden. (Walking?) He asks Adam
where he is. When he see's Adam wearing the fig leaf, he figures out
(not having known before) that he's eaten the forbidden fruit. He has to
ask how it happened. And then he gets mad. And has to take action
immediately to prevent Adam from eating the fruit of the tree of life,
because he apparently hadn't foreseen any of this. It isn't just the one
line that tells us this God isn't omnipotent. (I could also point out
the previous part of the story, in which God is confused about what
would make a good companion for the man.)


Thank you for your message. Although the first part of
the quoted
statement below deals with Darwinism in biological
systematics, the
language of the final clause addresses the theory in
general rather
than a specific or narrow application of that theory.
Had the authors
meant to convey that only one aspect of the theory had
been proven
false, they would have used language sufficient to
communicate this.
And in fact they did, as I quoted above. ICR is wrong. I
won't say
they're lying, because they probably aren't capable of
reading closely
enough to understand the chapter.
If I understand correctly (and I strongly suspect I do
not) Ray, Glenn
and ICR are not the only ones who are confused by this
quote. Take a

SOME *INSANITY* CUT

Exactly, the Vedas, the Gita, the Quran, the Bible and all that was
provided, were as an aid to follow, as human did not know many a times
what was necessary to be done when there were dilemma in ones life
about which path to follow.

Bullshit. Humans had been doing just fine for hundreds of
thousands of years before they wrote down their mythology and
superstition.

They can *ONLY* be applied illogically.

God don't rest in mine; they don't rest in yours.

and our heart always pinches when we try to commit wrong

Then why are religious people much more evil than atheists?

just that our brain takes over many times and we
follow our selfish act.
Those who understand the theory tend to find that it has great
explanatory power... this shouldn't occur with a senseless
theory.-
No one but you considers copulation to be a mechanism in the
sense you imply, and as has been explained to you several
times (all of which you ignored), differential reproductive
success applies to every living thing, sexual or asexual,
multicellular or single-celled.

Again, atheism has no connection to evolution, so your entire arguement
is
wrong. Evolution is an observed fact, the theory of evolution explains
our
current understanding of how evolution works, and is supported by
reality,
unlike your delusions.

Re: fractions as opposed to decimal conversions- it was made
abundantly clear to me that I would never, ever get the hang of
trigonometry if I did not understand the fractions involved. A
calculator does just not do trig justice (I am speaking of the
calculators when I took trig, of course- back when you scribed
things
on clay tablets.)

Yes, that's exactly the problem----there's a different kind of
tablet
today (and that's not a metaphor anymore, right?), and as the kids
to
whom we are trying to teach paleolithic skills would say:
"Trigonometry? There's an app for that!"

A couple of things have happened to me recently that allow me to flesh
out the argument that we had a couple of months ago.

1. Our department is working on required assessment of our
programs,
which leads to quite a lot of introspection.
2. This Summer, I watched a documentary on a ‘lightning
calculator’.
They did MRI scans on his brain, and discovered that his calculations
were distributed, where they were in isolated sections of a ‘normal’
brain.
These led me to think about what we try to do in the math curriculum,
K-12 and college.

Our goal is to have students trained:
1. In the basic tools – arithmetic, algebra, calculus,
differential
equations, analysis and numerical computation.
2. To be able to extract mathematical questions from text and
experimental results.
3. To model and analyze those models.
4. To make inferences from those models.

For decades, US math education focused on the rote material, then
drastically changed to the ‘real’ world modeling. Neither worked, for
the reason that a complete knowledge requires all of the things that I
described above, which use different parts of the brain, and these
have to be integrated, rather than compartmentalized.

We need the speech parts of the brain to read and extract information,
the logic center for analysis, the symbolic center for symbol
manipulation, the spatial center for things like geometry and vector
analysis, and so on.

Trying to avoid using certain parts, by say not teaching fractions,
ultimately leads to an inferior result. For your simple example,
manipulating fractions leads to being able to deal with algebraic
fractions, and these skills are needed for inverse Laplace and Fourier
transforms.

As a simplistic analogy, why do runners work on upper body strength?

Tim, I could go through and point out how you haven't really made a
case here, although your 1-4 list is well presented. However, we keep
getting stuck on the basic strawman problem: I have never suggested
'not teaching fractions', or any of the other things you think I have
suggested not teaching! I want to teach *more* fractions, and more
about them, so that there is *more* integration of the verbal, visual
and symbolic components of problem solving, starting as early as the
developmental psych people think is appropriate.

As I point out in Ron's scenario, my approach does not remove anything
but the operation of multiplying numbers together, and adds
appreciably to the possibility of reducing the student's confusion
about 'what she is really doing' or 'what the fractions really mean'
and so on.


The Werner von Braun Prize for Interesting Uses of a Cyclotron
The Tribe of Dan Award for Advances in Biblical Etymology
The Genesis Prize for Longest Biblical Verse in a Science Newsgroup
The EMF Spectrum Commendation for Outstanding Work on Sound Waves
The NASA Creationist Scientist Award, sponsored by the Wiring a
Minuteman Committee
And of course, The Suzanne Lifetime Award for Best Attempt At Making Science Fit The
Bible
That last should be the Hugh Ross award. Suzanne's not in his class.
There is a clown on alt.global-warming who accidently posted a
link to a survey of scientists that, when the survey is read,
shows the exact opposite of what he hoped it said. (Specifically
that the scientific consensus is overwhelming that global warming
has happenedand is happening, and that humans have caused and are
causing it). He thought it said the opposite.
Much like Creationist behavior.
than most protestants and roman catholics according to a new survey

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39392563/ns/us_news/

A new survey of Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists,
agnostics, Jews and Mormons outperformed Protestants and Roman
Catholics in answering questions about major religions, while many
respondents could not correctly give the most basic tenets of their
own faiths.
Forty-five percent of Roman Catholics who participated in the study
didn't know that, according to church teaching, the bread and wine
used in Holy Communion is not just a symbol, but becomes the body and
blood of Christ.
More than half of Protestants could not identify Martin Luther as the
person who inspired the Protestant Reformation. And about four in 10
Jews did not know that Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and
intellectuals in history, was Jewish.
Respondents to the survey were asked 32 questions with a range of
difficulty, including whether they could name the Islamic holy book
and the first book of the Bible, or say what century the Mormon
religion was founded. On average, participants in the survey answered
correctly overall for half of the survey questions.
Atheists and agnostics scored highest, with an average of 21 correct
answers, while Jews and Mormons followed with about 20 accurate
responses. Protestants overall averaged 16 correct answers, while
Catholics followed with a score of about 15.
The study also found that many Americans don't understand
constitutional restrictions on religion in public schools. While a
majority know that public school teachers cannot lead classes in
prayer
"Cannot?" Of course they can: there is nothing stopping them. And
in many public schools in the USA, teachers are leading their
classes in prayer.
less than a quarter know that the U.S. Supreme Court has
clearly stated that teachers can read from the Bible as an example of
literature.

There is an opinion that science deals only with observable
universe. Then we have problem because modern physics
comes to situation when it meets unobservable world as
on the very small scales as on very big scales:
we cannot see quarks, virtual particles, gravitons
we cannot see dark energy- it is negative,
we cannot see dark mass- it neither emits nor reflects,
em waves- electron exist, but magneton- doesn’t: why?
Electron meets vacuum and we lost it- what is it destiny?
Some theories offer new spaces and particles which
no one can visualize.
Etc
I think what you are addressing is called "theoretical physics".

************

China launches lunar probe
2 hours 8 mins ago
11:06 a.m. 01/10/2010

China has launched its second lunar exploration probe, boosting the country's efforts to rise as a major space power. Skip related content
Related photos / videos Lift off for China's second lunar probe Play video Lift off for China's second lunar probe Play video China launches lunar probe Enlarge photo
Lift off for China's second lunar probe
The Chang'e-2 orbiter blasted off from a remote corner of the southwestern province of Sichuan on Friday morning, according to state media.

The probe is expected to fly as close as 9.3 miles above the moon and take high-resolution photos of the Bay of Rainbows.

China is jostling with neighbours Japan and India for a bigger presence in outer space but its plans have faced international scrutiny.

Fears of a space arms race with the United States and other powers have mounted since China blew up one of its own weather satellites with a ground-based missile in January 2007.
Fears from who? Don't make me laugh! U.S. must had blowed satellites since day 1, so please give me a break! U.S. is the major bellicose country in the world, and has proof to show all around the globe. China, at the other hand, has more dollars than U.S. could print! So what's the "fears? The day China attacks it will be attacking his own purse! Secondly, China has never goes overseas to attack any country, instead than the Allies had gone almost to the moon to blast the ones that could overshadowed them, so it's China that must be trembling as U.S. is loosing ground just because they spent more than they had.
Open your eyes. And I'm not a communist.

The Chang'e is named after a mythical Chinese goddess who flew to the moon.

A successful Chang'e-2 mission would mark another advance in China's plan to establish itself as a space power in the same league as the United States and Russia.

China launched its first moon orbiter, the Chang'e-1, in October 2007, accompanied by a blaze of patriotic propaganda celebrating the country's technological prowess.



*****************

FIN. Ende. The End. Finis. Termino.08:22 p.m. 28/09/2010
Staff 2010
Abulia Gomez Politics
Nick Decker SF
Seat Allday SF
Bob Davenport Dinosaurs
Ed Cox Movies
Director Shafer Astronomy
Doctor Farthom Climbor Literature
Laura Smirnoff Literature
Pop Corn Literature
Liebe Gundlich Historia
Natalicio Infante Historia
Tutmosis Vargas Ancient history
Maria Pia Poetry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvryZo4h9Pw


incendio.
-----------------

Currently released so far... 607 / 251,287


courage is contagious
Viewing cable 06CARACAS958, EXPLAINING VENEZUELA'S COZINESS WITH IRAN,
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HQSOUTHCOM ALSO FOR POLAD
FOR FRC LAMBERT

E.O. 12958: DNG: CO 04/08/2026
TAGS: PGOV MASS PARM VE
SUBJECT: EXPLAINING VENEZUELA'S COZINESS WITH IRAN,
C-NE6-00140

REF: A. CARACAS 00661
¶B. 05 CARACAS 01822
¶C. CARACAS 00330
¶D. TD-314/18176-06
¶E. TD-314/18093-06
¶F. HAVANA 04139
¶G. IIR 6 902 9642 06

CARACAS 00000958 001.2 OF 005


Classified By: POLITICAL COUNSELOR ROBERT R. DOWNES FOR 1.4
(D)

-------
Summary
-------

¶1. (S//NF) Manifest in the public rhetoric of both
countries, a shared hatred for the USG is the driving factor
in the budding relationship between Iran and Venezuela. The
BRV is favoring Iran with petroleum deals and other contracts
that appear to make little commercial sense. Although rumors
of Venezuela's cooperation with an Iranian nuclear weapons
program appear baseless, Iran and Venezuelan spokesmen have
announced their intention to develop Venezuela's civilian
nuclear capabilities. Press reports and Embassy contacts
suggest Venezuela is preparing to try to exploit its own
uranium deposits with Iran's assistance. Sensitive reporting
indicates Venezuela may also be seeking armaments,
cooperation on maintaining aircraft purchased from the United
States, and help in training its military reserves. Post
will continue to monitor the relationship while seeking to
exploit Venezuela's missteps as it isolates itself from
countries alarmed about Iran's nuclear ambitions. End
summary.

¶2. (SBU) Iran and Venezuela have been signing bilateral
agreements galore. Iranian parliamentary speaker Gholam-Ali
Haddad Adel told the press during his visit to Caracas in
mid-February that the two countries had signed 100 accords.
Iranian President Mohammad Khatami and Venezuelan President
Hugo Chavez inked twenty of these together in March 2005,
including plans to cooperate in petrochemical, agricultural,
and housing projects. Venezuela often signs agreements to
show off its importance on the world stage without following
through. Yet, in the case of Iran, there appears to be more
to the budding relationship than show. Below we examine
several possible explanations for the bilateral coziness, in
rough order of importance.

--------
Ideology
--------

¶3. (SBU) Iran shares a disdain for the U.S. Government that
the BRV seeks in its foreign allies. Chavez' ill-defined,
left-wing, anti-American ideology often drives his foreign
policy decisions, even when his foreign counterparts only
appear to be seeking commercial benefits. With Iran,
however, he has found a partner that shares his desire to try
to face down the United States. Evident in his daily
rhetoric, Chavez' ideology--and his accompanying attempts to
use it to stir up his political base--best explain his
decision to isolate himself from much of the world by
supporting Iran. (Venezuela joined only Syria and Cuba in
voting February 4 to oppose Iran's referral to the U.N.
Security Council for its involvement in uranium enrichment.)
Chavez, who regularly alleges the U.S. military has stolen
Iraq's oil, has accused Washington of having designs on
Iran's supply. Other BRV officials have taken Chavez'
ideological cue to the point of making Venezuela appear

CARACAS 00000958 002.2 OF 005


fanatical. General Alberto Muller, a key proponent and
planner of Venezuela's new military doctrine, announced
February 14 that Iran would be acting "in legitimate defense"
if it were to use nuclear arms, although he cautioned that
Venezuela did not support the production of such weapons.
According to Argentine newspaper La Nacion, Venezuelan
Ambassador to Argentina Roger Capella Mateo stormed out of a
Mercosur meeting with Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel
Moratinos when Moratinos said his country opposed Iran's
refusal to submit to nuclear controls.

---------
Petroleum
---------

¶4. (C) Ideology may be the only explanation for bilateral
cooperation in the petroleum sector. Iran and Venezuela
appear to enjoy each other's company as fellow radical
oil-producing countries. Both Iran and Venezuela are OPEC
price hawks, but their solidarity on the supply issue does
not appear to have translated into many mutual benefits.
Foreign Minister Ali Rodriguez told reporters March 11 that
Iran and Venezuela were signing agreements because their oil
policies coincided, but mentioned nothing tangible,
digressing into how Venezuela could benefit from Iranian
experience in the cooperative movement and in developing
small agricultural machines. Venezuela has granted the
Iranian company Petropars the rights to certify a block in
the Faja region. The Iranians, however, have no experience
exploiting the extra heavy crude found in the area. (The
industry perception is that if a company is granted rights to
study a block in the Faja, it will eventually be given a
block in the area to exploit.) Chevron representatives told
us that the Iranians approached them seeking assistance on
carrying out the certification studies.

--------------------------------------
Commercial Agreements: Who's to Gain?
--------------------------------------

¶5. (C) A USD 200 million binational fund to finance
investment in both countries could ensure that commercial
ties continue to grow. Nonetheless, the unprofitability of
many of the deals inked with Iran again raises the question
of whether ideological factors are driving the relationship.
For example, in January Venezuela offered Iran contracts to
build low-income housing even though Iran's bid was twice as
expensive as the Venezuelan private sector's. (Note:
corruption could explain the overpricing, as well.)
Venezuela also plans to build a USD 220 million cement plant
to supply the local market with Iran's help. Such a plant
would appear to be a poor investment. Despite the enormous
transportation costs for cement, multinational CEMEX
currently exports cement from Venezuela for a price lower
than the going Venezuela rate because its local buyers delay
payments, according to a prominent economic contact. Chavez
announced in February he would import 10 Iranian plants to
process corn flour, a Venezuelan staple. The BRV likely sees
the state takeover of this industry as a solution to recent
shortages caused by its price controls. In another example
of state economic planning and ideological ties trumping
sound investment planning, Iran will establish an ethanol
plant in Lara State, according to press reports. The BRV may
view the production of ethanol--a by-product of sugar
refinery--as a fringe benefit to its project to resurrect
failed Cuban sugar mills in Venezuela.

----------------------------------------
Going Nuclear?: Uranium Rumors and More

CARACAS 00000958 003.2 OF 005


----------------------------------------

¶6. (C) As reported REF A, recent rumors that Venezuela is
trafficking in nuclear weapons and mining uranium for Iran
appear to be little more than the conspiracy-mongering by
Chavez adversaries. More disconcerting, however, are BRV and
GOI statements that suggest a long-term plan to develop
Venezuela's nuclear potential. Chavez mentioned on his
weekly "Alo Presidente" program in May 2005 the possibility
of asking help from "countries like Iran" in developing a
nuclear energy program. In February 2006, Iran publicly
affirmed its willingness to help Venezuela develop nuclear
energy, according to press reports. (See REF B for a
description of Venezuela's need for foreign expertise to
restart the fledgling nuclear program it shut down in the
1980s.) In March 2005, a memorandum of understanding signed
by the Iranian and Venezuelan Presidents established that
Iran would help Venezuela create a "National Geoscience
Database" that would contain a survey of the mineral deposits
throughout Venezuelan territory. Tomasso Tosini, geologist
and director of the Earth Sciences Institute of the Central
University of Venezuela, told us in June 2005 that creating
such a "basic geological map" of Venezuela would be the
logical first step to restarting a uranium program in
Venezuela.

¶5. (C) During a February 2006 meeting with poloff, UCV
professor and senior Accion Democratica party official Nelson
Lara claimed to have information substantiating Iran's
involvement in Venezuela's mineral sector. Lara said active
duty military officers in his classes told him that 20
Iranian officials were working in the Ministry of Basic
Industry and Mines. He said the Iranians did not answer to
any Venezuelan management. Lara speculated about their
involvement in uranium mining but said he did not know the
Iranians' role in the ministry. He added that 37 Iranians
were active in the Venezuelan Institute of Geology and Mines,
which Chavez launched in mid-2004.

¶6. (C) Venezuelan threats to take over property in areas
believed to have significant radioactive deposits are fueling
additional rumors that Venezuela is planning to mine
uranium. (Embassy note: Rumors that the BRV is planning to
mine these areas appear overblown. Factors besides uranium
are driving the government's targeting of land, although the
delays in expropriations reported in REF C could also reflect
BRV attempts to drag out negotiations for land until it can
gauge the true value of properties' mineral wealth.) In the
mid-1980s, the Ministry of Energy and Mines conducted
preliminary geochemical samplings that indicated the possible
presence of uranium deposits in at least two locations
currently eyed by the government:

-- The study revealed "anomalous areas to be assessed in
more detail" along the Caroni River in Bolivar State, where
the National Guard has begun evicting individual gold and
diamond prospectors reportedly to prevent them from damaging
the environment. In mid-March, National Guard attempts to
dislodge people from the Caroni basin ended in the deaths of
two miners. Demanding the withdrawal of soldiers stationed
in the Venezuelan military's fifth theater of operations
(TO5), miners responded by blocking roads and burning TO5
facilities.

-- The ministry report cited a section of Cojedes State as a
source of concentrated uranium. The area contains ranch and
nature preserve Hato Pinero, which the government has
targeted for possible expropriation. Concerned that the
ranch's alleged mineral wealth might attract BRV interest,

CARACAS 00000958 004.2 OF 005


ranch owner Jaime Perez Branger gave us a copy of an earlier
(1959) Ministry of Mines report calling Pinero's granite "the
most radioactive in the region." A footnote in the document,
however, noted that the counters used in the 1959 study would
not have detected uranium ore, one of many possible sources
of radioactivity.

-------
Defense
-------

¶7. (S//NF) Defense cooperation may also help explain the
expansion of the bilateral relationship (REFS D and E).
Indeed, an army official is scheduled to replace the current
Iranian Ambassador to Venezuela. According to sensitive
reporting, the Venezuelan Government is seeking lethal
armament from Iran such as rockets and other explosive
materiel. Venezuela has also sought from Iran parts for the
U.S. aircraft in its fleet that have been denied under the
Department's policy prohibiting the sale of components for
lethal munitions. Finally, sensitive reporting suggests that
Venezuela has sought help from Iran in establishing its
military reserve force. The Iranian popular mobilization
army (Basij) and the revolutionary guard corps (IRGC) invite
comparison with Venezuela's still evolving parallel military
structures: the reserves and the territorial guard.
Commander of the Basij Gen. Mohammed Hejazi visited Venezuela
in 2005, and an IRGC colonel has arrived here probably on
permanent assignment. A retired military officer citing
Venezuelan reservists told us March 24 that Iran had a small
number of soldiers in Venezuela training the reserves.

---------------
Shared Culture?
---------------

¶8. (S//NF) Venezuela has a Muslim population of about
250,000 including some tens of thousands of Shia'. In
addition to its political activities, the nine
Iranians--including four career diplomats--posted to the
Iranian Embassy in Venezuela represent a small but growing
number of their citizens working in Venezuela in both the
formal and informal sectors. Cultural ties between the two
countries, however, do little to help explain the expanding
relationship. Most Venezuelans are unfamiliar with Muslims
and are unable to distinguish Iranians from Arabs or from
other Muslims. Indeed, as REF F states about Iran and Cuba,
Venezuelan and Iranian societies have little more in common
than their despotic leaders' antipathy toward the United
States.

-------
Comment
-------

¶9. (C) Venezuela's support for a country that has nuclear
ambitions, supports terrorism, and talks about wiping Israel
off the map is of grave concern. It also alarms
nations--such as France (REF G)--that have tended to make
light of our concerns about Venezuela's antidemocratic
tendencies and militarization. We can exploit this alarm.
Just as the shared animosity toward Washington driving the
Iran-Venezuela relationship leads to irrational commercial
endeavors, it is also likely to lead to additional diplomatic
gaffes and other missteps that reflect poorly on the BRV
among wary international observers.

¶10. (C) We should not dismiss the uranium rumors. At the
very least, it appears clear Venezuela plans to prospect for

CARACAS 00000958 005.2 OF 005


uranium with the intention of starting a nuclear program.
Like many BRV schemes, the plan may remain in bureaucratic
and financial limbo for years, and it may never be
fulfilled. Yet, in the event that its ends are not peaceful,
it warrants careful monitoring. All source information
indicates Iran needs foreign sources of uranium to maintain
its nuclear program. How Iran would benefit from any
Venezuelan plan to extract uranium will be an open question
as long as Venezuela's uranium deposits remain unverified.


courage is contagious
Viewing cable 06MOSCOW5740, RUSSIA: PRESIDENTIAL SUCCESSION SNAPSHOT
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Every cable message consists of three parts:
The top box shows each cables unique reference number, when and by whom it originally was sent, and what its initial classification was.
The middle box contains the header information that is associated with the cable. It includes information about the receiver(s) as well as a general subject.
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If you find meaningful or important information in a cable, please link directly to its unique reference number. Linking to a specific paragraph in the body of a cable is also possible by copying the appropriate link (to be found at theparagraph symbol). Please mark messages for social networking services like Twitter with the hash tags #cablegate and a hash containing the reference ID e.g. #06MOSCOW5740.
KEEP US STRONG! Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
06MOSCOW5740 2006-05-31 13:01 2010-12-01 21:09 CONFIDENTIAL Embassy Moscow
VZCZCXRO3110
RR RUEHDBU
DE RUEHMO #5740/01 1511315
ZNY CCCCC ZZH
R 311315Z MAY 06
FM AMEMBASSY MOSCOW
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC 6749
INFO RUCNCIS/CIS COLLECTIVE
RUEHXD/MOSCOW POLITICAL COLLECTIVEC O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 05 MOSCOW 005740

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 05/19/2016
TAGS: PGOV PREL ECON PINR RS
SUBJECT: RUSSIA: PRESIDENTIAL SUCCESSION SNAPSHOT

REF: A. 2005 MOSCOW 14734
¶B. MOSCOW 5000
¶C. MOSCOW 3335

Classified By: Minister-Counselor for Political Affairs Kirk Augustine.
Reasons: 1.4 (B/D).

¶1. (C) SUMMARY. Adding fuel to already intense speculation
about who will succeed him, President Putin confirmed to
state media May 13 that he will endorse a candidate before
the March 2008 election. Both Kremlin-connected and
independent analysts believe Putin's choice will be driven by
a desire to ensure his physical and financial security, to
maximize the likelihood of continuity in his policies, and to
preserve the current political system, in which he is the
final arbiter of disputes among rival groups (a role he
likely intends to play even after leaving office). Our
contacts generally think Putin will consult about possible
successors with his closest advisers but make the final
decision alone, without involving elites outside the Kremlin
or relying heavily on public opinion surveys, as former
President Boris Yeltsin did. The conventional wisdom remains
that First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitriy Medvedev and Deputy
Prime Minister/Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov are the two
front-runners, but other horses of varying shades of darkness
are believed to be at least potentially in the running.
Putin's interest lies in prolonging uncertainty to avoid a
premature slippage of power away from him and toward a
perceived successor, but that uncertainty encourages
competitive jockeying for position among the candidates and a
feeding-frenzy among those who fear their snouts could soon
be torn from the trough. END SUMMARY.
.
HELPING RUSSIA BY HELPING HIMSELF
---------------------------------

¶2. (C) Most of our contacts take for granted that Putin's
own physical and financial security and social status
post-2008 loom large in his succession calculations.
XXXXXXXXXXXX told us that financial
considerations would drive Putin's thinking.
XXXXXXXXXXXX agreed, describing the Russian
presidency as a business and saying that Putin's decision
on a successor would be based on his sense of who would
best be able to protect the wealth he and his associates
had acquired. Equally important to Putin, according to
XXXXXXXXXXXX, is preserving the elite-based political
system in which ad hoc interest groups vie for political
clout and control over economic resources, with Putin as the
ultimate arbiter. XXXXXXXXXXXX said Putin feared the
system would collapse without him at its center, and therefore
intended to remain active behind the scenes while leaving
day-to-day governance to his successor. XXXXXXXXXXXX
agreed, saying that preserving the current balance of power
among competing elite groups was of great importance to Putin.

¶3. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX told us that Putin needs to choose a
strong successor who is not beholden to any one group and who
has already amassed a personal fortune during Putin's tenure.
Such a figure, XXXXXXXXXXXX explained, would have a vested
interest in maintaining the status quo in order to protect
his own wealth and standing. XXXXXXXXXXXX disagreed,
arguing that a strong successor would inevitably side with
one group or another, and succumb to the temptation to crush
his rivals. Such a turn of events would not only disrupt the
precarious balance of clans and lead to a redistribution of
assets, but also undermine Putin's role as arbiter of the
competing groups. XXXXXXXXXXXX offered another
perspective, saying that a succession candidate's "strength"
or "weakness" would be of only secondary interest to Putin;
the overriding criterion would be loyalty to Putin personally.
.
PUTIN LISTENING, BUT WILL DECIDE ALONE
--------------------------------------

¶4. (C) Many of our contacts believe that, having weakened
all his potential rivals and atomized the elite, Putin will
be able to make the choice of his successor alone, without
needing to consult extensively with political and economic
elites to ensure their support. XXXXXXXXXXXX expects
Putin to discuss the issue informally with his closest advisers,
but to reveal his final decision to them only shortly before
going public, in order to maintain strict secrecy. The broader
elite and the general public would learn of Putin's decision
simultaneously. XXXXXXXXXXXX concurred, saying Putin
would consult only a handful of close advisers, including
Medvedev, Sergey Ivanov, and Deputy PA head Igor Sechin.
XXXXXXXXXXXX expected that on questions of succession,
Sechin's opinion would carry more weight than Medvedev's or
Ivanov's, because Putin would consider that as possible
successors, the latter two could not give disinterested advice.

¶5. (C) Asked whether Putin, by not consulting more broadly,
would not risk alienating those whose financial resources and
media outlets would be central to ensuring a smooth
succession, XXXXXXXXXXXX predicted that the elites, on
hearing the name of Putin's preferred successor, would fight
each other to be first to pledge allegiance to his choice. If
elite opinion mattered to Putin, XXXXXXXXXXXX added
pointedly, former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovskiy would
still be free. Instead, XXXXXXXXXXXX said, Putin was confident
elites have learned from the Khodorkovskiy case the severe
consequences of defying the Kremlin. XXXXXXXXXXXX
agreed, saying that despite real divisions within the elite, there
remains a profound corporate interest in maintaining the existing
contours of political and economic power, and that can best be
done by falling in line behind Putin's choice, whoever it may be.

¶6. (C) Given how extensively former President Yeltsin's team
used public opinion polls to identify an electable successor,
many have assumed Putin would do the same.
XXXXXXXXXXXX, however, told us the Kremlin would
not poll to determine what qualities the public wants to see in
Russia's next president, since the results would be meaningless:
respondents in such a poll would simply describe Putin when
asked what their ideal president would be like -- reversing the
pattern from 1999, when respondents listed as desirable qualities
those that the deeply unpopular Yeltsin lacked
XXXXXXXXXXXX also argued that the Kremlin's control over
major media outlets would not be sufficient in itself to build a
mass following for a presidential candidate -- the key to
winning public support would be to find a way to "resonate
with the public," as Putin did when he gave an emotional speech
in September 1999 in response to a series of apartment bombings
that had terrorized the population. Until that point,
XXXXXXXXXXXX said, even daily television coverage had
only modestly improved Putin's popularity rating.

¶7. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXXX disagreed,
arguing that the Kremlin has sufficient administrative and media
resources to ensure that the public votes "correctly" in 2008.
Taking a different tack, XXXXXXXXXXXX told us public opinion
could be an important variable if the electorate were actively engaged,
but he did not expect it to be mobilized for this election.
Voters -- like the elites -- would primarily be interested,
XXXXXXXXXXXX thought, in maintaining the higher standard of
living they have attained under Putin, and would see Putin's chosen
successor as the best available insurance policy.

FIVE WHO ARE THOUGHT TO BE ALIVE
--------------------------------

¶8. (C) Upwards of thirty names have appeared in the Russian
press as possible successors to Putin, but XXXXXXXXXXXX
told us she believes Putin has now narrowed the field to
five: First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitriy Medvedev, Deputy
Prime Minister/Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov, Presidential
Administration (PA) head Sergey Sobyanin, Russian Railways
CEO Vladimir Yakunin, and head of the Government apparatus
Sergey Naryshkin. Nearly all analysts see Medvedev and
Ivanov as the clear front-runners at this stage, and most of
our contacts describe Sobyanin, Yakunin, and Naryshkin as at
best "reserve" candidates. XXXXXXXXXXXX dismissed the theory
that Putin was using Medvedev and Ivanov as "red herrings" to
distract attention from the "real," as yet unidentified,
successor, saying that Putin is serious about making Medvedev
or Ivanov Russia's next president. XXXXXXXXXXXX concurred,
noting that Putin has nothing to gain by choosing a less-familiar
figure to succeed him. Those seeing the succession as a
two-horse race are divided as to whether Putin will endorse
Medvedev or Ivanov, with XXXXXXXXXXXX positing a
"power-sharing" scenario in which one would serve as president
and the other as prime minister.

Medvedev

¶9. (C) Medvedev's long-standing loyalty to Putin, his
administrative skills, his propensity for hard work, and his
potential to benefit if the "national projects" that he
supervises are successful are among his qualifications for
the presidency. XXXXXXXXXXXX told us that Medvedev would
respect Putin's wishes and work to maintain the existing balance
among rival elite groups, which would make his selection
acceptable to all key power elements. XXXXXXXXXXXX also
said Medvedev's administrative skills were widely underestimated.
Citing his Kremlin contacts, XXXXXXXXXXXX said the PA had
run more efficiently under Medvedev than now under
Sobyanin. XXXXXXXXXXXX, who said Medvedev was his own
choice for president, described him as dedicated, hardworking,
and skilled in management. (NOTE: In addition to his duties as
First Deputy Prime Minister, Medvedev directs the implementation
of the national projects, is chairman of the board of Gazprom, is
responsible for coordinating Russia's response to avian flu, and
since mid-May has chaired a government commission on bringing
digital television to Russia. END NOTE.)

¶10. (C) Medvedev nonetheless has challenges to overcome.
XXXXXXXXXXXX told us Medvedev does not come across as
"presidential" on television or in public, although she noted
that he has nearly two years to strengthen his image. The
camp of PA Deputy Head Igor Sechin, which is still trying to
convince Putin to remain in office beyond 2008, poses another
challenge to Medvedev. XXXXXXXXXXXX said Sechin's camp
is trying to discredit both Medvedev and Ivanov in order to convince
Putin to seek a third term. According to XXXXXXXXXXXX,
Medvedev lost a recent battle when Fradkov (who is allied with
Sechin) was given control of the Customs Service, which had
previously been subordinated to Medvedev's frequent ally,
Minister of Economic Development and Trade German Gref.

Sergey Ivanov

¶11. (C) Ivanov has Putin's trust, is widely regarded as a
patriot and pragmatist, comes across as presidential, and has
proven politically resilient in the face of recurrent
criticism, including from within the military establishment.
XXXXXXXXXXXX said Ivanov is regarded as a more effective
administrator and bureaucratic player than Medvedev.
XXXXXXXXXXXX said Ivanov had demonstrated his ability to
weather political attacks over the last year, as his popularity
rating had not been affected by the Sechin camp's efforts to
tarnish his image by exploiting cases of military hazing,
using the Main Military Prosecutor to highlight the high rate
of crime in the armed forces, and publicizing the fact that
Ivanov's son had run over and killed an elderly pedestrian.
XXXXXXXXXXXX told us that Putin's May 10 address to
the legislature gave Ivanov a boost by highlighting
improvements in military capability, innovation, and morale.

¶12. (C) Our contacts note that Putin and others could
perceive some of Ivanov's strengths as weaknesses. For
instance, while many say that Ivanov is not corrupt (at least
in relative terms), some of Putin's close advisers reportedly
see that as a threat, since they do not know how to "do
business" with such a person. XXXXXXXXXXXX said Putin
may also see Ivanov's leadership skills as a potential threat to the
balance of forces among elites, and potentially to Putin's
own continued influence.

Yakunin

¶13. (C) Putin probably considers Vladimir Yakunin's
long-standing friendship and business experience his best
qualifications for the presidency, according to our contacts.
Yakunin shares Putin's KGB background, and they first met in
the 1990s in St. Petersburg. Yakunin has thus far generally
avoided the public spotlight, and (according to a close
supporter) hopes Medvedev and Ivanov will fall short of
Putin's expectations in the run-up to 2008 (ref A). Our
contacts generally consider Yakunin a fallback candidate who
would probably remain loyal to Putin after taking office, but
could have difficulty forging ties with the political and
economic elites and the general public. XXXXXXXXXXXX
said Yakunin was "too exotic and strange" to become president,
citing Yakunin's close and secretive relationship with the
hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church, his reported ties
to Fidel Castro and Lyndon Larouche, and his involvement in
organizations like the Center for the National Glory of
Russia. XXXXXXXXXXXX agreed, saying Yakunin was
generally seen as an "outsider" in the elite, notwithstanding
his ties to Putin.

Sobyanin

¶14. (C) Sobyanin is thought by some to be a potential
successor because of his loyalty to Putin and apparent lack
of ambition. He recently visited London at Putin's
direction, providing the beginnings of an international
profile. In XXXXXXXXXXXX's view, Putin could feel
confidentthat Sobyanin, if elected, would continue to defer
to him. XXXXXXXXXXXX said Sobyanin's lack of ambition
was one reasonPutin had felt comfortable bringing him into the
PA. (Note. The basis for the judgment by XXXXXXXXXXXX
and XXXXXXXXXXXX that Sobyanin lacks ambition, rather
than has veiled ambition, is not clear. End Note) Among
Sobyanin's liabilities, according to XXXXXXXXXXXX, was that he
I "one-dimensional" and comfortable
only when dealing with regional affairs. XXXXXXXXXXXX noted
that Sobyanin lacks a public platform that would help him build
support among voters and, despite a good reputation as
governor of Tyumen, he was proving an ineffective manager in
the PA. XXXXXXXXXXXX told us Sobyanin had been charged with
overseeing the drafting of the annual state of the nation
address that Putin had presented May 10, but Putin had been
so dissatisfied with the early drafts that he took over the
speechwriting process himself. Others have painted
Sobyanin's role in the production of the speech in more
positive terms. XXXXXXXXXXXX thought Putin would not be
comfortable making Sobyanin president, given their relatively
brief connection.

Naryshkin

¶15. (C) Sergey Naryshkin's name has recently begun surfacing
with greater frequency in the media and in conversations with
our contacts (ref B), but he continues to be regarded as at
best a long-shot for president. XXXXXXXXXXXX said Naryshkin,
who worked with Putin in the KGB, is a junior partner to Fradkov,
who has used him to attack Gref and Minister of Finance
Aleksey Kudrin. XXXXXXXXXXXX said Naryshkin dutifully follows
instructions from Putin and Fradkov in the hope of becoming
Putin's successor, or at least to be Minister of Economic
Development and Trade in the next president's administration.
XXXXXXXXXXXX described Naryshkin as an "interesting" figure and
cautioned against underestimating his chances.
XXXXXXXXXXXX agreed, saying that Naryshkin is a capable,
detail-oriented official whose loyalty to Putin is undisputed.
.
COMMENT
-------

¶16. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX's list of five "live" candidates is
not, in our judgment, definitive. Given Putin's tendency to
make surprise personnel decisions and the unforeseeable
political issues that could arise before March 2008, other
potential successors may emerge. Moreover, although we
believe Putin does plan to leave office in 2008, that is at
most a present intention. If as 2008 approaches he is not
persuaded of the viability of any of the succession
candidates, particularly if it appears that Russia will face
difficult domestic or international circumstances, Putin
could still decide to remain in power, and would likely have
little trouble in arranging to do so. XXXXXXXXXXX
told us a third-term scenario was still on the table in the
Kremlin, although only as a fall-back option.

¶17. (C) Our expectation, however, remains that Putin will
step out of the Presidency in 2008. We concur that, in
choosing the person he wants to succeed him, he will be
motivated to protect his wealth and security (e.g., from
prosecution) and to ensure his continuing political influence
and social status after leaving office. We believe he will
also reject any succession candidate who he suspects might
steer Russia away from his policy "legacy." Those factors
suggest he will choose a successor in whom he has a high
degree of personal and political trust and who he sees as at
least competent as an administrator and politician. We share
the judgment that he has a relatively free hand in his
choice, with the political class and broader public ready, at
least initially, to defer to his judgment within broad limits.

¶18. (C) Views differ on how involved Putin plans to be in
day-to-day governance after 2008. Unlike Yeltsin in 2000,
Putin will leave office at a relatively young age, in good
health and with very high public support. If he wants a
highly operational "behind-the-scenes" role, that could
incline him to opt for a successor whom he saw as easy to
control. If he envisions, on the other hand, a "stand-back"
post-2008 role in which he would engage only on strategic
issues (a la Deng Xiaoping, a model that our counterparts in
the Chinese Embassy claim to find germane), that could be
reflected in a choice of a more dynamic and capable successor
expected to act with substantial autonomy. Obviously, the
degree to which any successor -- having won popular election
and received at least the externalities of power -- would
long be content to administer day-to-day affairs while
allowing Putin to direct the real course of policy from
behind the scenes is open to question.

¶19. (C) We also agree that last fall's appointments of
Medvedev and Sergey Ivanov to the government put them in
front-runner positions. While some (XXXXXXXXXXXX)
argue that Medvedev is likely to get the nod for the presidency
with Sergey Ivanov as his prime minister, we do not see
compelling evidence for that conclusion. An at least equally
strong argument, we believe, could be made in favor of Sergey Ivanov as president and Medvedev as prime minister, given Putin's
demonstrated trust in Ivanov and the likelihood that, in a
world seen to be full of external challenges to Russia, a
"silovik" with experience in the KGB/FSB, as head of the
Security Council, and as Defense Minister and manager of the

MOSCOW 00005740 005 OF 005

military-industrial complex would be seen as best prepared
and most credible as head of state.

¶20. (C) Putin's present interest lies in leaving such issues
unresolved, to prevent the initiation of a shift of power
away from him and towards any perceived successor. The
uncertainty that is beneficial to him, however, feeds
competition among possible (or at least self-perceived)
candidates jockeying for position, and encourages a
feeding-frenzy among those currently in high positions who
fear their snouts could soon be torn from the trough.
BURNS

Viewing cable 07PARIS2743, U/S BURNS' JUNE 12 DINNER MEETING WITH FRENCH
If you are new to these pages, please read an introduction on the structure of a cable as well as how to discuss them with others. See also the FAQs


Understanding cables
Every cable message consists of three parts:
The top box shows each cables unique reference number, when and by whom it originally was sent, and what its initial classification was.
The middle box contains the header information that is associated with the cable. It includes information about the receiver(s) as well as a general subject.
The bottom box presents the body of the cable. The opening can contain a more specific subject, references to other cables (browse by origin to find them) or additional comment. This is followed by the main contents of the cable: a summary, a collection of specific topics and a comment section.
To understand the justification used for the classification of each cable, please use this WikiSource article as reference.

Discussing cables
If you find meaningful or important information in a cable, please link directly to its unique reference number. Linking to a specific paragraph in the body of a cable is also possible by copying the appropriate link (to be found at theparagraph symbol). Please mark messages for social networking services like Twitter with the hash tags #cablegate and a hash containing the reference ID e.g. #07PARIS2743.
KEEP US STRONG! Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
07PARIS2743 2007-06-26 15:03 2010-12-01 21:09 SECRET Embassy Paris
VZCZCXYZ0019
OO RUEHWEB

DE RUEHFR #2743/01 1771542
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
O 261542Z JUN 07
FM AMEMBASSY PARIS
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 8497
INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVE PRIORITY
RUEHLB/AMEMBASSY BEIRUT PRIORITY 0510
RUEHBO/AMEMBASSY BOGOTA PRIORITY 0412
RUEHBUL/AMEMBASSY KABUL PRIORITY 0504
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW PRIORITY 5880
RUEHSI/AMEMBASSY TBILISI PRIORITY 0435
RUCNDT/USMISSION USUN NEW YORK PRIORITY 1277
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC PRIORITY
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC PRIORITYS E C R E T PARIS 002743

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 06/14/2017
TAGS: PREL MARR MOPS EUN NATO AF TU GG FR
SUBJECT: U/S BURNS' JUNE 12 DINNER MEETING WITH FRENCH
POLITICAL DIRECTOR ARAUD

REF: A) PARIS 2208 (NOTAL) B) PARIS 2257 (NOTAL) C)
PARIS 2359 (NOTAL)

Classified By: Ambassador Craig R. Stapleton, Reason 1.4 B/D

¶1. (U) June 12, 2007, 8:30 P.M.

¶2. (U) Participants

U.S.
Under Secretary Burns
Ambassador Stapleton
P Staff Bame
Pol Recinos (notetaker)

France
MFA Political Director Gerard Araud
Elysee Strategic Affairs Advisor Francois Richier
Elysee Americas Advisor Damien Loras
MOD Diplomatic Advisor Frederic Mondoloni
FM Cabinet Advisor Philippe Errera
Political Director's Staff Gael Veyssiere

¶3. (S) Summary: U/S Burns and Political Director Gerard Araud
met June 12 for a lengthy discussion of key bilateral issues,
including Colombia hostages, Russia (MD and CFE), NATO
enlargement/Georgia, Iran, Lebanon/Syria, Afghanistan, and
Turkey/EU. Araud emphasized the new, more positive tone in
the U.S.-French relationship since Sarkozy's election to the
Presidency and affirmed that France would seek to avoid
airing disagreements in public. Prior to the meeting, Burns
and Araud exchanged information on the status of French and
U.S. hostages in Colombia and agreed to consult in Paris and
Bogota. Araud cited recent unhelpful Russian statements on
Missile Defense and CFE deployments as indicative of Russia's
bluntly assertive foreign policy. Sarkozy, said Araud, is
seeking a positive relationship with Putin while at the same
time pressing him without immediate success on human rights
and Chechnya. Araud suggested that, on CFE, Russia might be
justified in questioning the U.S. troop presence in the
Balkans. The challenge is to find a middle way between
complacency and confrontation in dealing with Putin and the
new Russia, Araud emphasized. Burns and Araud agreed on
continued public support for Georgian President Sakaashvili,
while cautioning him against provoking the Russians. France,
however, maintained strong doubts as to whether Georgia has
an eventual vocation as a member of NATO. Burns pushed back,
reminding Araud that we needed to safeguard democratic
principles in Europe by being more inclusive.

¶4. (C) Summary cont'd: Araud agreed with Burns on Iran's
non-compliance with UNSC resolutions, and on the need for an
additional resolution and sanctions outside the UNSC. Burns
stated that a diplomatic resolution was still possible and
biting sanctions likely were necessary to achieve that end.
The French registered Burns' statements that the United
States had proof that Iran was providing arms in Iraq, to the
Taliban in Afghanistan, and to Hizballah in Lebanon. French
Presidency advisors, however, cautioned that the evidence was
not yet strong enough in Lebanon to justify pressing Tehran;
France also did not wish to risk losing its dialogue with
Iran. On Lebanon, Araud agreed that France should have
consulted the U.S. prior to initiating its call for a Lebanon
"national dialogue" conference, and affirmed Sarkozy's
intention to maintain existing French policy towards Lebanon
alongside close consultation with the United States. On
Afghanistan, Araud reiterated France's decision to increase
its Operational Mentoring and Liaison teams (OMLTs) from one
to four, bringing the total number of French trainers for the
Afghan National Army to over 150 personnel. Pressed on PRTs,
a Presidential advisor said that France was studying the
concept and presented it to Sarkozy as one of several
options. Araud added that European support for Allied
efforts in Afghanistan was not open-ended. Araud also said
that Sarkozy was seeking to decrease tensions with Turkey
with a proposal to move forward on those EU accession
chapters that would apply equally to membership and
partnership status. Paris had also informed Ankara that the
GOF would not support a vote in the French Senate on a
controversial resolution on Armenia. End Summary.

Bilateral Relationship
----------------------


¶5. (C) Araud began the discussion by noting that the Sarkozy
government was opening a new period in the bilateral
relationship. France remains a good friend of the United
States, and will seek even closer ties with us. That said,
France will not hesitate to express disagreement when
France's approach differs from that of the U.S. Referring to
past differences over Iraq, Araud stated that France sees no
need to make our disagreements public -- we will discuss and
consult first. Araud observed that former French Ambassador
Jean-David Levitte, who is Sarkozy's new Diplomatic Advisor,
has a track record of working well with the United States.
Burns concurred, telling Araud that the U.S. had taken
positive note of the new French government's decision to drop
public calls for a "time horizon" for withdrawal of foreign
forces from Iraq.

Colombia
--------

¶6. (S) In an aside before the dinner, Araud described how
Ingrid Betancourt's release had become such an important
cause in France, one which President Sarkozy had insistently
associated himself with during the presidential campaign.
Burns noted that since August 2003 there had been no proof of
life of the American hostages in Colombia. However,
extensive interviews with the recently escaped FARC prisoner
had led us to believe the information he provided was
credible; there may now be grounds for believing the U.S.
hostages, held together with Betancourt, are still alive.
Loras replied that based on French interviews of the same
escapee, the GOF was skeptical. The information provided was
far too detailed, possibly indicating it was planted -- and
the whole "escape" potentially a fake. Araud and Burns
agreed to further consultations between our missions in
Bogota and in Paris. Loras asked that such talks begin in
Paris. Araud referred us to the Presidency for future
consultations on this sensitive topic.

¶7. (S) Comment: In a follow-up conversation with Pol/MC after
the dinner, Loras was much less categorical, saying at least
a week was needed to review the information concerning the
hostages' well-being and whereabouts. We agreed to consult
closely, especially with the Presidency. End Comment.

Russia, Missile Defense and CFE
-------------------------------

¶8. (C) Echoing almost verbatim his previous comments to
visiting staffdel Myers (ref B), Araud stated that Russia has
become a problem as it regresses to a traditional Czarist
foreign policy -- imperialist and brutal, reflecting endemic
racism, anti-Semitism and nationalism. By way of an example,
he noted that a high-ranking member of the Duma recently
exclaimed to a visiting French official, "so, you've elected
the Jew Sarkozy!" Araud also observed that Russia feels
besieged by NATO, the U.S. and the West. Faced with the
"trauma" of dealing with Chechnya, and the "humiliation" of
retreat from former territories during the Yeltsin years,
Russia is unlikely to modify its imperialist foreign policy
in the near future. Our collective challenge, emphasized
Araud, is to find a middle way "between complacency and
confrontation" in dealing with Putin and this "new Russia."

¶9. (C) Burns said that President Bush sees continuing value
in the relationship, especially on such important issues as
fighting terrorism and wmd proliferation, and so had chosen
not to respond in kind to Putin's heated rhetoric. The U.S.
has deliberately refrained from reacting publicly to Putin's
recent provocative statements on CFE, MD, and other issues.
Loras said that Sarkozy is seeking to develop a positive
relationship with Putin, but without significant success to
date. In their meeting, Sarkozy had raised with Putin human
rights concerns, including the situation in Chechnya, the
violent repression of a recent gay rights parade in Moscow,
and the assassination of Anna Politkovskaya. Putin reacted
by attacking human rights (prison conditions) in France.
Additionally, Loras noted that two days after Sarkozy had
lobbied Putin for the purchase of Airbuses, Russia announced
the purchase of Boeing aircraft.

¶10. (C) Araud stated that Putin had explained to Sarkozy the
Russian proposal to locate part of the U.S. Missile Defense

(MD) program in Azerbajian. The French were appreciative of
the briefings General Obering had provided in France, as they
helped to understand better the U.S. project -- and the
Russian response. The Russians, Araud concluded, are trying
to divide the Allies by questioning the Iranian threat and
proposing a sensible alternative to basing MD defense in
central Europe. Burns said that the Russians, in offering an
Azerbajian option, were, in fact, implicitly recognizing the
reality of an Iranian threat and the need for missile
defense. The United States, meanwhile, remains open to MD
coordination with NATO.

¶11. (C) Regarding CFE, Araud ventured that Russia might have
a basis for its desire for some reciprocity. The Russians
had made progress in Georgia, yet we say we will never ratify
until the Istanbul commitments are completely fulfilled: the
GOF is not sure this is the best approach. Furthermore, the
Russians could argue that U.S. bases in Bulgaria and Romania
are intended not only for training, but in fact amounted to
"substantial" new deployments. Burns pushed back, reminding
Araud that Russia had concurred on those basing agreements.
Araud agreed that the Russians were guilty of revisionist
history, but the Allies nonetheless needed to offer Russia a
way out.

Georgia
-------

¶12. (C) Turning to the then-upcoming June 13 Sarkozy meeting
with Georgian President Saakashvili, Loras commented that the
Presidents had met twice before. In public, Loras added,
France will convey a message of "strong support." Privately,
however, the French planned to urge Sakaashvili not to
provoke the Russians, to avoid raising tensions, and to work
on the human rights situation in Georgia. The Georgians are
looking to use NATO as a shield; they "should not play with
fire" by baiting Moscow, Loras emphasized. Burns said the
USG also had counseled Sakaashvili against provoking the
Russians, but Sakaashvili will be nervous until Georgia has
obtained MAP. Burns explained that the U.S. had told the
Georgian President that while NATO's door remains open,
Georgia must meet its obligations under NATO.

¶13. (C) Voicing well-known French reservations over NATO
membership for Georgia, Araud questioned whether membership
ultimately made sense: "Georgia in NATO means problems; it
should have the diplomacy of its geography." He pointed to
Finland -- a prosperous and independent non-NATO country on
Russia's border -- as a possible model. Presidential advisor
Richier added that decisions on the borders of Europe for the
EU and NATO were open. Is Georgia-in-NATO a security
interest? Araud concluded by stating that Sarkozy has not
yet addressed Georgia policy. Burns explained that the USG
would like to see Georgia obtain MAP status and eventual NATO
membership. We clearly have a different view of NATO: we
see a political imperative in bringing in democracies. The
same logic that brought the Baltics into NATO applies to
Georgia. Russian objections should not block the membership
track; Moscow should not have a veto. The future of Russia
is not readily predictable, hence the U.S. would like to
ensure that as much of Europe is democratic and protected by
NATO as possible.

Iran
----

¶14. (C) Araud and Burns agreed that Iran is not complying
with UNSC sanctions and continues to move forward with its
nuclear program. Regarding next steps, Araud observed that
while it may be difficult to obtain new UN sanctions with
more bite, UNSC action nevertheless serves to provide
legitimacy. He observed that the French Embassy in Tehran
reports that U.S. financial sanctions have been very
effective, but that Iran is not yet ready to yield to
international pressure. In fact, the regime is in a
hardening period. We must therefore manage the crisis for
the long term ("pour la dure"), and keep our nerves.
Richier suggested that we should continue to seek another
UNSC resolution before proceeding to a review of other
options including alternate sanctions -- on which Sarkozy
would have to be consulted. He added that the United States
and France should refrain from public discussion of such
sanctions to avoid giving the impression, at this stage of

UNSC discussions, that we plan to move forward regardless of
results in New York. Burns reviewed his recent discussions
of Iran with Israeli officials, nothing that they agreed with
the USG that there still is time for a diplomatic solution.
Stronger sanctions and economic pressure will be essential to
achieving that end. Other governments must be convinced of
that essential point.

Iran/Lebanon
------------

¶15. (C) Burns also reviewed how Iran violated UNSC
resolutions by providing arms to Hizballah in Lebanon, which
appears to be taking new steps to threaten Israel, and to the
Taliban in Afghanistan. Loras responded that, given that the
evidence on Hizballah arms in Lebanon is not verifiable,
France is not currently pushing Iran on this issue. Araud
added that France is trying to keep open its dialogue with
Larijani on Lebanon. All agreed that financial sanctions
remain an effective way to pressure Iran to behave. Burns
briefed Araud on the status of Iranian-American hostages held
by Iran, and requested an appeal for their release by the
French Ambassador. Araud replied that he has already raised
the matter with Iranian authorities, and recalled that it had
taken France a year to obtain the freedom of a French hostage
in Iran.

¶16. (C) Araud stated that Sarkozy had told President Bush
that France would maintain its policy on Lebanon, minus its
exclusive Harriri focus. Sarkozy had also solicited
President Bush's advice about talking with Syria. Araud said
Sarkozy responded that now is not the time, as Syria remains
very destructive. Burns told Araud that the United States
had been surprised at not having been consulted prior to
France's recent call for a conference on Lebanon in Paris.
Araud contritely agreed that consultations in advance were
warranted. Returning briefly to a discussion of the renewal
of UNIFIL, MOD advisor Mondoloni revealed that the French
military would like to downsize its presence, but that
civilian leaders had emphasized to them that political
obligations were paramount.

Afghanistan
-----------

¶17. (C) Araud and Richier confirmed previous reporting on new
French commitments for Afghanistan (reftels). They
emphasized that despite campaign rhetoric, France is staying
the course in Afghanistan. Paris plans to increase the
number of French "Operational Mentoring and Liaison Teams
(OMLTs)," from the current one to four, bringing the total
number of French personnel training the Afghan Army to over
150 trainers. They also noted that following a review of
Afghanistan policy and, at the request of the Presidency,
Paris was reexaming how to improve French assistance efforts.
Burns asked about the possibility that France could
establish a PRT, noting it was the only NATO Ally not so
involved. Richier admitted that France is studying PRT
operations, but that the option of establishing one had not
been raised during earlier the policy review. It is
important to note, he added, that in contrast to previous
French positions, the Government is not dismissing out of
hand the PRT option: Sarkozy had still not completed the
review of, or reached to final conclusions on, France's
Afghanistan policy.

¶18. (C) Araud reiterated the French observation that European
governments and publics are not committed to a long-term
engagement in Afghanistan: there is a certain "fragility to
the European presence there." For example, the German
government faces difficult battles with the Bundestag every
time it needs to renew its military presence there. "We
(Europeans) are in Afghanistan to demonstrate support for the
United States," Araud added; Europeans do see it as a vital
interest of their own. While France's earlier call for a
"contact group" had been ill-conceived, urgent but discreet
Quad format discussions are needed on preparing an "exit
strategy" or "success strategy." Neither the Allies nor the
Taliban can win decisively in Afghanistan, Araud commented.
We therefore must continue work to get the Afghans to assume
control of their future. Additionally, President Karzai
needs to better address Pashtun grievances, which fuel
support for the Taliban, he concluded. Burns, citing the

Balkans as an example, noted that the USG does not believe
the Allies should leave Afghanistan any time soon.

Turkey
------

¶19. (C) In a brief exchange on Turkey, Burns reviewed the
PKK's recent announcement that it would cease attacks, and
USG contacts with Ankara regarding the negative impact of any
cross border operation into Iraq. Araud related that Sarkozy
and Levitte were seeking to decrease tensions with Turkey by
supporting EU progress on 31 of the 35 accession chapters,
i.e., those chapters that would apply equally to a privileged
partnership with Turkey (the other four applying only to
membership). Levitte had explained Sarkozy's position to the
Turks during a recent visit to Ankara, where he also informed
the GOT that Sarkozy would ensure that the Armenia genocide
bill would die in the French Senate.

Please visit Paris' Classified Website at:
http://www.state.sgov.gov/p/eur/paris/index.c fm

STAPLETON

Encounters with Aliens on this Day
December 2
1896 - On this day in 1896 an airship descended from the sky 15 miles north of Pacific Grove, California and landed on the Pacific Ocean. Three human occupants aboard guided it to shore and then hid it in the woods, according to the two witnesses. (Sources: San Francisco Call, December 3, 1896; Philip Rife, It Didn't Start with Roswell, p. 31; Jerome Clark, The Unidentified, p. 141).

1950 - A pearl white, spinning, glowing disc-shaped object closely paced a jeep along a road in Nanyuki, Kenya at 10:45 a.m. It reportedly made a buzzing noise like bees. This case is listed as a Project Blue Book "unknown." (Source: Project Blue Book files counted in official statistics, case 845).

1950 - At around 9:00 p.m. a brilliant UFO maneuvered over Ellenton, South Carolina for ten minutes, the future site of the Savannah River hydrogen bomb production facility, not yet constructed. (Source: Loren E. Gross, UFOs: A History - 1950 (volume 3), p. 62).
1956 - At 9:45 p.m. a luminous ovoid object maneuvered in the sky, descended, and then ascended to a somewhat higher altitude in Forest Lake, Minnesota. The witness, Mr. Moffett, chased it in his car. The UFO flew to the east slowly, then turned toward the south and flew away. (Source: Leonard H. Stringfield, CRIFO Orbit, March 1957, p. 2).
1962 - A bright, light-bulb shaped object flew in toward the east, then angled off toward the north before it "arched" its way into a lake. It was seen by residents of twelve cities between Akron, Ohio and Syracuse, New York. (Source: Ivan T. Sanderson, Invisible Residents, p. 226, citing the Conneaut News Herald).
1967 - At 9:30 p.m. a bullet or cone-shaped UFO hovered for two hours over the Baneasa airfield in the Bucuresti province of Romania. It then flew off to the north. There were many high quality military observers. (Source: Ion Hobana and Julien Weberbergh, UFOs from Behind the Iron Curtain, p. 176).
1973 - A luminous disc-shaped object maneuvered over the city of Brussels, Belgium shortly after midnight, flashing and glowing. It then faded in intensity to a bright star. It stayed visible for 75 minutes. (Source: FSR, July 1974, p. 32).
1973 - A box-shaped object approximately 8 feet in diameter was sighted by some fishermen in Carteret, Normandy, France at 5:30 in the morning. It directed a beam of light upon their fishing nets. (Source: Roland Godefroy, Phenomenes Spatiaux, December 1973, p. 19).
1973 - At 6:35 p.m. several city residents of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania watched a UFO over the Linden Avenue are of the city, including some who viewed it through binoculars. It looked like an acorn, with a green bottom. It was blinking slowly and was surrounded by a gray mist or haze. (Sources: Philadelphia Evening Bulletin, December 3, 1973; J. Bernard Delair, UFO Register, volume 5 (1974), case #1090; Matthew Graeber, Fate, May 2002, p. 27).

1973 - At 7 p.m. a strange, robot-like creature about four feet tall, with large round glowing eyes 18 inches wide, was seen in Korning Wood, Quebec, Canada at a distance of about 200 feet from the house of the witness. It possessed a large round head, long arms, and a bright red glow that emanated from behind its head. It disappeared behind the observer's house. (Source: Albert S. Rosales, Humanoid Contact Database 1973, citing Marc Leduc, CASUFO).
1973 - A 150 foot wide disc hovered in front of the car of a Mr. & Mrs. Gerard while driving on the interstate highway near Wilsonville, Oregon this evening. The object spun in a circular motion, and traveled up the I-5 freeway. It had circular portholes two to three feet deep, one inverted C-shaped area with no lights, and a blue light on top. It went behind a hill and was gone from view. (Source: J. Bernard Delair, UFO Register, volume 5 (1974), case #1174).

1974 - Stephen Jenkins of Croydon, Greater London, England woke up at 3 a.m. to hear clearly audible footsteps on the stairs. Two beings appeared on the landing. Their body texture was "something like closely compressed pulpy leaves." Their faces were reddish, with yellow eyes with hard black pupils. Around them was a translucent, faintly luminous "box like structure." In a moment they were gone. (Source: David F. Webb & Ted Bloecher, HUMCAT: Catalogue of Humanoid Reports, case 1974-73, citing Stephen Jenkins, The Undiscovered Country).
1974 - Driving home near Frederick, Wisconsin at 10:30 p.m. William Bosak, a 69-year-old farmer, noticed something parked on the opposite side of the road ahead. Slowing down to look, his headlights illuminated an object with a curved, transparent front, behind which could be seen a figure visible from the waist up, with arms upraised over his head, as if in terror. The figure seemed to be a little taller than a tall man, and had a square face with hair "sticking straight out from the sides." It had long, narrow ears that stuck straight out, brown furry arms, and a hairy torso. The eyes were large and protruding. Frightened, Mr. Bosak sped up past the object, which was surrounded by a kind of fog. As he passed, the car "darkened, as if in shadow," or his headlights dimmed, and the witness heard a soft whooshing sound. No ground traces were found at the site the following day. (Sources: David F. Webb & Ted Bloecher, HUMCAT: Catalogue of Humanoid Reports, case 1974-58, citing Dewey Berscheid, Edward E. Lightner, and Jerome Clark; Mark Rodeghier, UFO Reports Involving Vehicle Interference, case 375; APRO Bulletin, February, 1975).
Written by Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D. (Revised 15 November 2005).
Compiled from the UFOCAT database.
Themes: buzzing sound, discs, fog surrounding UFO, hovering UFOs, luminous UFOs, nautical UFOs, nuclear facility, red-faced humanoids surrounded by translucent box, short robot-like humanoid, tall hairy humanoid, whooshing sound. < Calendar | Home

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


Currently released so far... 667 / 251,287

courage is contagious
Viewing cable 05BRASILIA1396, BRAZIL DECLINES GUANTANAMO MIGRANTS
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Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
05BRASILIA1396 2005-05-24 19:07 2010-12-03 09:09 CONFIDENTIAL Embassy Brasilia
This record is a partial extract of the original cable. The full text of the original cable is not available.C O N F I D E N T I A L BRASILIA 001396

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 05/24/2015
TAGS: PREF SMIG BR US
SUBJECT: BRAZIL DECLINES GUANTANAMO MIGRANTS

REF: A. 04 STATE 305348
¶B. 04 STATE 139422
¶C. 04 BRASILIA 633 D. STATE 86436
Classified By: POLOFF BISOLA OJIKUTU FOR REASONS 1.4 B AND D

¶1. (U) On May 20, PolOff delivered reftel and talking points to Brazil's Ministry of External Relations (MRE) International Organizations Division (DOI) and the Human Rights Divisions (DDH). PolOff also delivered reftel talking points to UNHCR representative in Brasilia Luis Varese. PolOff's requests for a meeting with the Brazilian National Committee for Refugees (CONARE) were refused because CONARE's position has not changed since reftels A through D.

¶2. (C) Officials from DDH, DOI, and UNHCR confirmed that the GOB's position regarding this issue has not changed since 2003 and will likely not change in the foreseeable future. The GOB still contends that it cannot accept Guantanamo migrants because it is illegal to designate someone not on Brazilian soil a refugee. Despite multiple requests, PolOff did not receive a response regarding the USG's offer to pay for transportation for GOB resettlement officials to travel to Guantanamo. (Comment: Based upon Brazilian legislation and CONARE's strong stance against the USG's proposal, PolOff does not believe that the GOB will accept this arrangement. End Comment)

¶3. (C) DDH Office Director Marcia Ramos told PolOff that the GOB's close relationship with the Cuban government would make it impossible for the GOB to accept Cuban refugees. When PolOff asked if the GOB would consider accepting Haitian migrants only, Ramos said that due to Brazilian legislation, the GOB could not accept any migrants from Guantanamo Bay.

¶4. (C) UNHCR representative Luis Varese was more forthcoming in providing concrete answers to explain the GOB's position. (Note: Varese is a CONARE member and has one vote on the board. End note.) Varese told PolOff that refugee status in Brazil is usually granted after the refugee has been recognized by the host country (in this case, the U.S.). According to Varese, the GOB and CONARE believe that the migrants at Guantanamo Bay do not fit into this category because the USG has not "formally recognized" them as refugees. If they were formally recognized, CONARE believes, the USG would allow them to resettle in the U.S. so resettlement would not be an issue. Varese told PolOff that the "formal recognition" issue caused the GOB to reject the USG's proposal in 2003. He also told PolOff that CONARE's position would "probably not change" in the future.

Comment -------

¶5. (C) All attempts to discuss this issue with GOB and CONARE officials were flatly refused or accepted begrudgingly. In addition, this issue has been raised on numerous occasions and at a variety of levels, including U/S Grossman, since 2003. Given Brazilian legislation and Varese's comments, it does not appear that CONARE or the GOB will change their position on this issue. DANILOVICH¶3. On October 28, Poloff revisited Neves to check on progress with regard to the Cuban migrants. Neves apparently had not received a positive reaction within the GOB and had nothing to report. Based on previous efforts to engage the GOB on this issue (ref B), we do not expect a definitive response. Nonetheless, we will check back periodically. KUBISKE
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
07HARARE638 2007-07-13 10:10 2010-11-28 18:06 CONFIDENTIAL Embassy Harare
E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/12/2017
TAGS: PGOV PREL ZI
SUBJECT: The End is Nigh


Classified By: Ambassador Christopher W. Dell under Section 1.4b/d

¶1. (C) Having said my piece repeatedly over the last three years,
I won't offer a lengthy prescription for our Zimbabwe
policy. My views can be stated very simply as stay the
course and prepare for change. Our policy is working and it's
helping to drive change here. What is required is simply the grit,
determination and focus to see this through. Then, when the changes
finally come we must be ready to move quickly to help consolidate
the new dispensation.

THE SITUATION

¶2. (C) Robert Mugabe has survived for so long because he is more
clever and more ruthless than any other politician in
Zimbabwe. To give the devil his due, he is a brilliant
tactitian and has long thrived on his ability to abruptly
change the rules of the game, radicalize the political
dynamic and force everyone else to react to his agenda.
However, he is fundamentally hampered by several factors:
his ego and belief in his own infallibility; his obsessive
focus on the past as a justification for everything in the
present and future; his deep ignorance on economic issues
(coupled with the belief that his 18 doctorates give him
the authority to suspend the laws of economics, including
supply and demand); and his essentially short-term,
tactical style.

¶3. (C) While his tactical skills have kept him in power for 27
years, over the last seven this has only been achieved by a
series of populist, but destructive and ultimately
self-defeating moves. In reaction to losing the 2000
referendum on the constitution, a vengeful Mugabe unleashed
his QGreen BombersQ to commit land reform and in the
process he destroyed ZimbabweQs agricultural sector, once the
bedrock of the economy. While thousands of white farmers
saw their properties seized, hundreds of thousands of black
Zimbabweans lost their livelihoods and were reduced to utter
poverty. In 2005, having been forced to steal victory by
manipulating the results of an election he lost, Mugabe
lashed out again, punishing the urban populace by launching
Operation Murambatsvina. The result was wholesale
destruction of the informal sector, on which as much as
70-80 percent of urban dwellers had depended, and the
uprooting of 700,000 Zimbabweans. The current inflationary
cycle really began with Murambatsvina, as rents and prices
grew in response to a decrease in supply.

¶4. (C) And now, faced with the hyperinflationary consequences
of his ruinous fiscal policies and growing reliance on the
printing press to keep his government running, Mugabe has
launched Operation Slash Prices. This has once again given
him a very temporary boost in popularity (especially among
the police, who have led the looting of retail outlets and
now seem well positioned to take a leading role in the
black market economy) at the cost of terrible damage to the
country and people. Many small grocery and shop owners,
traders, etc., will be wiped out; the shelves are
increasingly bare; hunger, fear, and tension are growing;
fuel has disappeared. When the shelves are still empty
this time next week, the popular appeal of the price roll
back will evaporate and the government simply doesnQt have
the resources to replace the entire private commercial
sector and keep Zimbabweans fed. It may attempt to do so
by printing more money, adding even more inflationary
pressure on a system already reeling from the GOZQs
quasi-fiscal lunacy combined with the price impact of
pervasive shortages. The increasingly worthless Zim dollar
is likely to collapse as a unit of trade in the near
future, depriving the GOZ of its last economic tool other
than sheer thuggery and theft of othersQ assets.

¶5. (C) With all this in view, IQm convinced the end is not

HARARE 00000638 002 OF 004


far off for the Mugabe regime. Of course, my predecessors
and many other observers have all said the same thing, and
yet Mugabe is still with us. I think this time could prove
different, however, because for the first time the
president is under intensifying pressure simultaneously on
the economic, political and international fronts. In the
past, he could always play one of these off against the
other, using economic moves to counter political pressure
or playing the old colonial/race/imperialist themes to buy
himself breathing room regionally and internationally. But
he is running out of options and in the swirling gases of
the new Zimbabwean constellation that is starting to form,
the economic, political and international pressures are
concentrating on Mugabe himself. Our ZANU-PF contacts are
virtually unanimous in saying reform is desperately needed,
but won't happen while the Old Man is there, and therefore
he must go (finding the courage to make that happen is
another matter, however, but even that may be coming closer).
This is not some sudden awakening on the road to
Damascus, but a reflection of the pain even party insiders
increasingly feel over the economic meltdown. We also get
regular, albeit anecdotal, reports of angry and
increasingly open mutterings against Mugabe even in ZANU-PF's
traditional rural bastions. Beginning in March, the
other SADC leaders finally recognized (in the wake of the
terrible beatings of March 11 and the international outcry
that followed Q another self-inflicted wound for Mugabe)
that Zimbabwe is a problem they need to address. Thabo
Mbeki appears committed to a successful mediation and is
reportedly increasingly irritated with MugabeQs efforts to
manipulate him or blow him off altogether. If Mugabe
judges that he still commands all he surveys by virtue of
being the elder statesman on the scene, he may be
committing yet another serious blunder. Finally, one does
well to recall that the only serious civil disturbances
here in a decade came in 1998 over bread shortages, showing
that even the famously passive Shona people have their
limits. The terror and oppression of the
intervening years have cowed people, but itQs anyoneQs guess
whether their fear or their anger will win out in the end.

WHAT WILL THE END LOOK LIKE?

¶6. (C) This is the big, unanswerable question. One thing
at least is certain, Mugabe will not wake up one morning a
changed man, resolved to set right all he has wrought. He
will not go quietly nor without a fight. He will cling to
power at all costs and the costs be damned, he deserves to
rule by virtue of the liberation struggle and land reform and
the people of Zimbabwe have let him down by failing to
appreciate this, thus he neednQt worry about their
well-being. The only scenario in which he might agree to
go with a modicum of good grace is one in which he
concludes that the only way to end his days a free man is
by leaving State House. I judge that he is still a long
way from this conclusion and will fight on for now.

¶7. (C) The optimal outcome, of course, and the only one that
doesnQt bring with it a huge risk of violence and conflict, is
a genuinely free and fair election, under international
supervision. The Mbeki mediation offers the best, albeit
very slim, hope of getting there. However, as Pretoria
grows more and more worried about the chaos to its north
and President MbekiQs patience with MugabeQs antics wears
thin, the prospects for serious South African engagement
may be growing. Thus, this effort deserves all the support
and backing we can muster. Less attractive is the idea of
a South African-brokered transitional arrangement or
government of national unity. Mbeki has always favored
stability and in his mind this means a ZANU-PF-led GNU, with
perhaps a few MDC additions. This solution is more likely
to prolong than resolve the crisis and we must guard
against letting Pretoria dictate an outcome which

HARARE 00000638 003 OF 004


perpetuates the status quo at the expense of real change
and reform.

¶8. (C) The other scenarios are all less attractive: a popular
uprising would inevitably entail a bloodbath, even if it
were ultimately successful; MugabeQs sudden, unexpected
death would set off a stampede for power among ZANU-PF
heavy weights; a palace coup, whether initiated within
ZANU-PF or from the military - in which Mugabe is removed,
killed, exiled or otherwise disposed of, could well devolve
into open conflict between the contending successors. Similarly,
some form of "constitutional coup" i.e., a change at the top
engineered within the framework of ZANU-PFQs "legitimate"
structures could well prove to be merely the opening bell
in a prolonged power struggle. None of the players is
likely to go quietly into the night without giving everything
they have, including calling on
their supporters in the security services. Moreover, experience
elsewhere would suggest that whoever comes out on top
initially will struggle, and more than likely fail, to halt
the economic collapse. Thus, there is a good prospect of
not one but a series of rapid-fire Qtransitions,Q until
some new, stable dispensation is reached.

¶9. (C) The final, and probably worst, possibility is that Mugabe
concludes he can settle for ruling over a rump Zimbabwe,
maintaining control over Harare and the Mashona heartland,
the critical forces of the National Reserve Force and CIO
and a few key assets Q gold, diamonds, platinum and Air
Zimbabwe to fund the good times. Under this scenario the
rest of the country, in one of the comradeQs favorite
phrases, could Qgo hang,Q leaving it to the international
community to stave off the worst humanitarian consequences.


WHAT OF THE OPPOSITION?

¶10. (C) ZimbabweQs opposition is far from ideal and I leave
convinced that had we had different partners we could have
achieved more already. But you have to play the hand youQre dealt.
With that in mind, the current leadership has little executive
experience and will require massive hand holding and assistance
should they ever come to power.

¶11. (C) Morgan Tsvangarai is a brave, committed man and, by and
large, a democrat. He is also the only player on the scene
right now with real star quality and the ability to rally
the masses. But Tsvangarai is also a flawed figure, not
readily open to advice, indecisive and with questionable
judgment in selecting those around him. He is the indispensable
element for opposition success, but possibly an albatross around
t heir necks once in power. In short, he is a kind of Lech Walesa
character: Zimbabwe needs him, but should not rely on his executive
abilities to lead the country's recovery. Arthur Mutambara is young
and ambitious, attracted to radical, anti-western rhetoric and
smart as a whip. But, in many respects heQs a light-weight
who has spent too much time reading U.S. campaign messaging
manuals and too little thinking about the real issues. Welshman
Ncube has proven to be a deeply divisive
and destructive player in the opposition ranks and the
sooner he is pushed off the stage, the better. But he is
useful to many, including the regime and South Africa, so
is probably a cross to be borne for some time yet. The
prospects for healing the rift within the MDC seem dim,
which is a totally unnecessary self-inflicted wound on
their part this time. With few exceptions Q Tendayi Biti,
Nelson Chamisa Q the talent is thin below the top ranks.
The great saving grace of the opposition is likely to be
found in the diaspora. Most of ZimbabweQs best
professionals, entrepreneurs, businessmen and women, etc.,
have fled the country. They are the oppositionQs natural
allies and it is encouraging to see signs, particularly in
South Africa and the UK, that these people are talking,

HARARE 00000638 004 OF 004


sharing ideas, developing plans and thinking together about
future recovery.

¶12. (C) Unfortunately, among the MDCQs flaws is its inability to
work more effectively with the rest of civil society. The
blame for this can be shared on both sides (many civil
society groups, like the NCA, are single-issue focused and
take the overall dynamic in unhelpful directions; others,
like WOZA, insist on going it alone as a matter of
principle), but ultimately it falls to the MDC as the
largest and the only true political party, to show the
way. Once again, however, these are natural allies and
they have more reason to work together than fight against each
other.

STAYING THE COURSE, PREPARING FOR CHANGE

¶13. (C) If I am right and change is in the offing, we need to
step up our preparations. The work done over the last year on
transition planning has been extremely useful, both for
stimulating a fresh look at our own assumptions and plans
and for forging a common approach among the traditional
donor community. But the process has lagged since the
meetings in March in London and should be re-energized. It is
encouraging in this respect that USAID Washington has
engaged the Mission here in discussing how we would use
additional resources in response to a genuinely
reform-minded government . I hope this will continue and
the good work done so far will survive the usual
bloodletting of the budget process.

¶14. (C) The official media has had a field day recently whooping
that "Dell leaves Zimbabwe a failed man". That's not quite
how it looks from here. I believe that the firm
U.S. stance, the willingness to speak out and stand up,
have contributed to the accelerating pace of change.
Mugabe and his henchman are like bullies everywhere: if
they can intimidate you they will. But ther're not used to
someone standing up to them and fighting back. It catches them
off guard and that's when they make mistakes. The howls of protest
over critical statements from Washington or negative coverage
on CNN are the clearest proof of how this hurts them. Ditto
the squeals over Qillegal sanctions.Q In addition, the regime
has become so used to calling the shots and dictating the
pace that the merest stumble panics them. Many local
observers have noted that Mugabe is panicked and
desperate about hyperinflation at the moment, and hence heQs
making mistakes. Possibly fatal mistakes. We need to
keep the pressure on in order to keep Mugabe off his game
and on his back foot, relying on his own shortcomings to do
him in. Equally important is an active U.S. leadership
role in the international community. The UK is ham-strung
by its colonial past and domestic politics, thus, letting them
set the pace alone merely limits our effectiveness. The EU is
divided between the hard north and its soft southern
underbelly. The Africans are only now beginning to find
their voice. Rock solid partners like Australia donQt
pack enough punch to step out front and the UN is a
non-player. Thus it falls to the U.S., once again, to take
the lead, to say and do the hard things and to set the agenda.
Hundreds, maybe thousands, of ordinary Zimbabweans of all
kinds have told me that our clear, forthright stance has
given them hope and the courage to hang on. By this regimeQs
standards, acting in the interests of the people may indeed be
considered a failure. But I believe that the opposite is true,
and that we can be justifiably proud that in Zimbabwe we have
helped advance the PresidentQs freedom Agenda. The people of
this country know it and recognize it and that is the true
touchstone of our success here.

DELL

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Lies:
Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
07SANAA473 2007-04-02 05:05 2010-12-03 21:09 SECRET Embassy Sanaa
VZCZCXRO1280
PP RUEHDE RUEHDIR
DE RUEHYN #0473 0920535
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
P 020535Z APR 07
FM AMEMBASSY SANAA
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 6625
INFO RUEHZM/GULF COOPERATION COUNCIL COLLECTIVE
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC
RUEAIIA/CIA WASHDC
RHEHNSC/NSC WASHINGTON DC
RHMFISS/HQ USCENTCOM MACDILL AFB FL
RHRMDAB/COMUSNAVCENT BAHRAIN
RUEKDIA/DIA WASHINGTON DC
RHMFISS/CJTF HOAE C R E T SANAA 000473

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 03/31/2017
TAGS: PREL MASS YM
SUBJECT: (S) UNMANNED USG AIRCRAFT WASHES ASHORE, OFFICIAL
MEDIA REPORTS DOWNED IRANIAN "SPY PLANE"

REF: STATE 32641

Classified By: CDA NABEEL KHOURY, FOR REASONS 1.4 (B) AND (D).

¶1. (S) On March 27, Yemeni military officers discovered an
unmanned USG reconnaissance aircraft (Scan Eagle) that had
washed ashore on the Arabian Sea coast in the province of
Hadramaut. The President's Office immediately protested the
incident to CDA and requested an explanation. Initially
unaware of any USG operations in the area, Post learned after
further inquiry that the reconnaissance aircraft belonged to
the U.S.S. Ashland, which had been patrolling as part of
CTF-150, 60 nautical miles off the Yemeni coast. The
aircraft had crashed in international waters on March 17 and
had not been recovered.

¶2. (S) On March 28, CDA spoke with President Saleh (who was
attending the Arab League summit in Riyadh) via telephone and
confirmed that the aircraft belonged to the U.S. Navy. He
assured Saleh that the plane crashed performing routine
reconnaissance near the ship and had not been operating in
Yemeni territory. CDA also met separately with Interior
Minister Rashad Alimi and Ammar Saleh, Deputy Director of the
National Security Bureau, and presented both with general
information on the aircraft.

¶3. (S) President Saleh expressed doubt as to the plane's
actual mission, but promised CDA that the ROYG would not
"turn this into an international incident" and would instruct
government officials not to comment. On March 29, official
and pro-government media sources reported that the Yemeni
military had shot down an Iranian "spy plane" off the coast
of Hadramaut, after communicating with "multinational forces"
in the region. Independent daily Al-Ayam (largest
circulating independent newspaper), quoted an unnamed Yemeni
military official as confirming that the plane belonged to
the American government, but would not comment on whether the
plane was shot down or discovered after crashing.

¶4. (S) Comment: President Saleh clearly believes the
unmanned aircraft had been performing reconnaissance in
Yemeni territory when it crashed. He could have taken the
opportunity to score political points by appearing tough in
public against the United States, but chose instead to blame
Iran. No doubt focused on the unrest in Saada and our
support for the transfer of excess armored personnel carriers
from neighboring countries (reftel), Saleh decided he would
benefit more from painting Iran as the bad guy in this case.
End Comment.
KHOURY
lllllllllllllll
Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
10STATE9939 2010-02-01 16:04 2010-11-28 18:06 SECRET Secretary of State
VZCZCXYZ0026
PP RUEHWEB

DE RUEHC #9939 0321611
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
P 011605Z FEB 10
FM SECSTATE WASHDC
TO RUEHBJ/AMEMBASSY BEIJING PRIORITY 2747
INFO MISSILE TECHNOLOGY CONTROL REGIME COLLECTIVE PRIORITY
RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW PRIORITY 7036S E C R E T STATE 009939

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 02/01/2035
TAGS: MTCRE PARM PREL MNUC ETTC KSCA IR CH
SUBJECT: (S) ALERTING CHINA TO POSSIBLE MISSILE-RELATED
EXPORT TO IRAN

Classified By: (U) CLASSIFIED BY EAP DAS DAVID B. SHEAR,
REASON: 1.4 (C).

¶1. (U) This is an action request. Embassy Beijing, please
see paragraph 3.

¶2. (S) Background/Objective: The U.S. has information
indicating that in December 2009, the Chinese company Hong
Kong 4 Star Electronics Ltd. offered to sell gyroscopes
produced by a Russian company to Iran's Isfahan Optics
Industries. Our information indicates that these gyroscopes
could be delivered to Iran in early February 2010 and that
Isfahan Optics Industries was coordinating this transaction
through an intermediary named Iran Business (IBco). Because
key missile development organizations in Iran previously have
attempted to procure similar gyroscopes, we are concerned
this equipment potentially could be diverted to
missile-related end-users. We therefore want to alert
Chinese officials to this information and ask that they
investigate this activity with a view to preventing Hong Kong
4 Star Electronics Ltd. from facilitating missile-related
exports to Iran.

¶3. (S) Action Request: Request Embassy Beijing approach
appropriate host government officials to deliver talking
points/non-paper in paragraph 4 below and report response.
Talking points also may be provided as a non-paper.

¶4. (S) Begin talking points/non-paper:

(SECRET//REL CHINA)

--We would like to alert you to information of proliferation
concern and request your government's assistance in
investigating this activity.

--The U.S. has information indicating that in December 2009,
Hong Kong 4 Star Electronics Ltd., a Chinese company based in
Futian, China, had offered to sell Iran's Isfahan Optics
Industries gyroscopes produced by a Russian company.

--Our information indicates that these gyroscopes could be
delivered to Iran in early February 2010 and that Isfahan
Optics Industries was coordinating this transaction through
an intermediary named Iran Business (IBco).

--We are bringing this matter to your attention to support
your export control efforts as we are concerned this
equipment potentially could be diverted to missile-related
end-users in Iran.

--We understand that the Aerospace Industries Organization
(AIO), which is responsible for overseeing all of Iran's
missile programs, has previously attempted to procure similar
gyroscopes.

--We hope you will use this information to investigate this
activity and take all appropriate measures to ensure that
Hong Kong 4 Star Electronics Ltd. is not facilitating
unauthorized exports of missile technology to Iran.

--We believe taking such action would be consistent with
United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1737 and 1803,
which require countries to prevent transfers of items to and
from Iran that could contribute to the development of nuclear
weapons delivery systems.

--We look forward to continued cooperation on missile
nonproliferation issues and to hearing of any actions your
government takes in response to this information.

End talking points/non-paper

¶5. (U) Washington POC is ISN/MTR James Mayes (Phone:
202-647-3185). Please slug any reporting on this issue for
ISN/MTR and EAP/CM.

¶6. (U) A word version of this document will be posted at
www.state.sgov.gov/demarche.
CLINTON